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24th century Romulans...why the different look?

The Romulan Commander and SubCommander in "The Enterprise Incident" weren't herded into those Moe Howard wigs. Their chief engineer(the one cold cocked by Kirk) had a decent hairstyle as well.

When the Romulan Star Empire has their overthrow of the Praetor, Tal Shiar and whatever else (ala 1991 collapese of the USSR or 1989 Wall Teardown), they will show up in dreadlocks, Big Hair, Bee Hives, or whatever suits them. Maybe they could be wearing blue jeans and Grateful Dead T-Shirts.
 
Now that I think about it, only Vulcan males in TOS were shown to have the "bowl-cut" hairstyle. It wasn't until TNG--namely with Doctor Selar--that it became the fashion for both Vulcan men and women, apparently...

Thanks to ENT, we can now say that Vulcan women were pretty fly during Kirk's time...
:rommie:
 
Well, they did have that alliance with the Klingons for a time (is that even canon???) so perhaps they shared more than just cloaks and starships. . .

T'Dang: What happened to your head?
T'Lang: That Klingon, Kor, sneezed on me and I grew LUMPS!!!
T'Dang: They make you look pretty evil and ruthless. I'm telling the Praetor.
Praetor T'Bang: I hearby decree forehead lumps for everybody!!!

Later that day :

Praetor T'Bang: Wow, that Moe guy from the Earth show "3 Stooges" seems very powerful. He demands respect from his men. That does it. I hearby decree bowl cuts for all Romulan citizens.

. . .And so, Romulan history was made.
 
I've always assumed that enough time had passed that the Romulans were able to start to split off and evolve slightly differently.

They've been seperated for abouit 2000 years. People in Earth have been seperated for about 10k and they didn't evolve differently.

I think it's just their phenotypes.
 
I read a theory several years ago that there are two types of Romulans. Strong Brow and Smooth Brow. The Smooth Brow class were the leaders/ruling class during the TOS years, but they were eventually overruled/defeated by the Strong Brow members of their race. The Strong Brow Romulans were the result of breeding with other "slave" races during the long journey from Vulcan. The TNG episodes Gambit I & II indicated that the Romulans had conquered other worlds in the past and then moved on. I'm guessing that they incorporated the people of those worlds into their society. I don't know how well that works with what we know about the Romulan exodus, but I thought it was a reasonable theory.
 
Something to do with the different climate on Romulas?

gastrof said:
With the Klingon differences having been explained by ENTERPRISE

Oh, can you explain?
 
Something to do with the different climate on Romulas?

gastrof said:
With the Klingon differences having been explained by ENTERPRISE

Oh, can you explain?


Something along the lines of what O'Brien and Bashir suggested to Worf on DS9 when they saw (during time travel) that the 23rd century Klingons looked human. (They'd been in a room full of them and hadn't realized.)

Worf didn't confirm or deny their suggested explanations, but simply said "We don't talk about it."

On ENTERPRISE, we learn that Klingon scientists tried to use DNA from human genetics experiments (such as those that created Khan and his supermen) to make Klingons stronger.

They ended up creating a horrible virus that made Klingons look human, and then killed them.

In the end, Dr. Phlox helped stop the virus from killing Klingons, but it still caused countless Klingons to end up looking human. (The virus had spread to many outposts, colony worlds, and the like.)

Phlox suggested Klingon doctors were going to end up having a lot of reconstructive sugery cases, trying to restore the "warrior's ridges" to those affected by the virus.

We also see at another time on DS9 that Kor, Koloth, and Kang all end up at some point having ridges.

We can only assume that they were offspring of Klingons who'd been "humanized", but that at some point the empire became intolerant of the "human" Klingons, and most affected Klingons ended up having their appearance (and maybe their genetics) altered so the whole thing could be forgotten.

You didn't know about ENTERPRISE ironing out that little wrinkle?
 
I've always assumed that enough time had passed that the Romulans were able to start to split off and evolve slightly differently.

They've been seperated for abouit 2000 years. People in Earth have been seperated for about 10k and they didn't evolve differently.

I think it's just their phenotypes.

Actually, they'd only been "separated" for 100 years, so to speak.

In that, I mean that the ones from the TOS era, any that we saw without helmets, looked like Vulcans.

For the Romulans to look as they do on TNG after only 100 years can't be due only to "genetic changes" over time.

I can't recall one case of a TNG era Romulan looking like a Vulcan, except for that one woman who'd been living in disguise on Vulcan for a very long time. I have to assume she'd had sugery, since she's the only one of her type we see in the TNG era.
 
Advances in make-up. The end.

:vulcan:

The opening post in this thread said we are NOT talking about real world production problems/advances, that we're talking about an explanation for the differences IN THE TREK UNIVERSE.

If you can't play by the rules, we'll have to rule by your plays.

You're out. The end.
 
I'm reading the TOS book Forged in Fire which gives the background to the DS9 episode Blood Oath, and there is a bit where they talk about how some Trill accidently got exposed to a possible treatment for the Augment virus (which didn't work), and that was why some of them had ridges instead of spots. Maybe the same thing happened with the Romulans somewhere along the line.
 
Was it ever established when the Vulcans who would become Romulans left Vulcan? Even if it was thousands of years ago, would the splinter group evolve that differently? Lastly, was it ever established that the Remans were Vulcanoid (a Romulan/Vulcan offshoot)? In NEM, they looked so different that I just figured that they were a separate species that was indigenous to Remus and they were conquered by the Romulans shortly after they moved into the neighborhood.
 
Was it ever established when the Vulcans who would become Romulans left Vulcan?

Not exactly. We know there were "Romulans" and "Romulan offshoots" out there in the stars some 2,000 years before TNG, as per the episode "Gambit". We also know from ENT that Surak the Logical lived about 1,800 years before ENT. But nothing has absolutely confirmed that the departure of the Romulans from Vulcan coincided exactly with the onset of Surakian thinking on Vulcan, or with the big doomsday war that accompanied this onset of Surakianism.

It is quite possible that Vulcan had been starfaring for a long time before Surak, what with the 3,000-yr-old interstellar monastery of P'Jem and all. And it's possible that the ridgeheads were the result of such interstellar travel: radical mutations due to cosmic radiation or exotic environments, or interbreeding with aliens from outer space.

On the other hand, it's perfectly possible that Vulcan has supported both smooth and ridged people for a long time - just as Earth sports a broad variety of human phenotypes, some more radically different from each other than the ridged and smooth Vulcans. And it's perfectly possible that the group calling themselves Romulans would have been formed along racial lines, perhaps coming to be the worst oppressors or the worst oppressed on the warlike planet Vulcan.

Even if it was thousands of years ago, would the splinter group evolve that differently?

Some human phenotypes may have evolved in a fairly short timespan. It wouldn't take much - "selective breeding according to looks" is the most human thing imaginable, after all!

A key ingredient would be isolation between populations. And a desert world like Vulcan would already provide plenty of that. Interstellar colonies or space arks would be even better...

Timo Saloniemi
 
I'll take a shot at a theory. Pardon the length.
_____________________________________________

600,000 years in the past, Sargon's people were a peaceful race of telepaths exploring and colonizing their region of the galaxy. They settled on dozens of planets including Vulcan and Mintaka. Over the next 100,000 years, their mental abilities grew so powerful that they began to consider themselves gods. They could transfer their consciousness into living hosts (much like the Vulcan katra) or mechanical receptacles, they could control the minds of others or cause great pain. They even had telekinetic powers that allowed them to control machinery, direct energy like a weapon, and more.

These abilities resulted in devastating power struggles on Sargon's world. Billions were killed. The dominant faction of the planet, still embroiled in a war that looked like it would destroy all life on the planet, decided that drastic measures had to be taken to ensure survival of the species. They went to every colony world of the empire and forcibly removed the telepathic/telekinetic abilities of all of their people by altering their genetics. Those that refused or resisted were eliminated. The results of this genetic change was a pronounced brow ridge that belied major changes to the brains of the subjects that prevented them to use their abilities. But simply removing their abilities was not enough, since they still had the knowledge to reverse the changes. So all of their memories were wiped, and their cities and technology were destroyed completely.

These new people would start over again from scratch with no technology or history. They had become essentially the proto-Vulcans of Mintaka in terms of biology. The Mintakans, lacking environmental pressures to change, remained much the same as they were then, without telepathic powers. The Vulcans however, living on a harsh world, gradually started developing their mental abilities once again over the next 500,000 years. By the Time of the Awakening, they had some relatively limited telepathic abilities once again (touch telepathy, the ability to transfer a consciousness into another body). The brow ridges that had prevented their telepathy had withered away over the millenia as the Vulcans regained their powers.

The Vulcans of that era were no less prone to violence than their ancestors, and once again a terrible war engulfed the planet. Psionic Resonator weapons like The Stone of Gol were used by both factions in the war and killed millions by turning their own aggressive feelings against them. Both factions needed a countermeasure to the weapon and went about it in different ways. A leader named Surak arose in one faction who taught that the only way to defeat such a weapon was to purge all hostility and passion from one's mind and act only out of pure logic.

The other faction sought a more direct way to stop the telepathic weapons by turning to genetics. In ancient proto-Vulcans they found that the brains were wired differently in order to inhibit telepathy. They began altering their followers with the changes to the brains and the byproduct of the elevated brow ridges. Soon they had millions of soldiers, scientists, and leaders who were resistant to the effects of telepathic weapons without having to follow a philosophy of non-aggression. The tide of the war had turned and those who marched beneath the raptor's wings soon swept across the planet once again.

The two factions, no longer able to use psionic weapons against eachother, returned to conventional warfare. But with their aggressive tendencies and their resolve to fight to the death even when it was no longer logical gave the Raptor faction a decided advantage. The Followers of Surak were almost broken and decided to take drastic measures to preserve their way of life. They launched a nuclear first strike against the leadership of the Raptor faction, hoping that by cutting off the head the rest of the faction would become disorganized. They were correct. Leaderless, they were fought to a crushing defeat at the foot of Mt. Seleya. The Raptor faction, desperate and chaotic, decided death was preferable to surrender, and launched an all-out nuclear attack on their enemies. The Surakians responded in kind. Hundreds of millions of Vulcans were killed in the exchange.

The remnants of the Raptor faction, broken and defeated, were given the choice of becoming one with the Followers of Surak or face exile. Some remained on Vulcan, but the vast majority decided to take to the stars and find a new home. These people became the Romulans. The majority had the brow ridge and thus lacked telepathic abilities, but some retained their un-ridged Vulcan appearance and mental skills.

Two millenia later, the Romulans would return to plot their revenge on Vulcan and her allies. It was decided that in order to sew distrust of Vulcans amongst their allies and for infiltration purposes, the Vulcan-looking Romulans would take point on most operations. Ridged Romulans only operated behind-the-scenes or were forced to wear helmets that concealed their brow ridges. They wanted the other species of the Federation to question their Vulcan partner's allegiance.

After a while it became apparent that this strategy wasn't working, so ridge-headed Romulans once again became the dominant and most visible force in the fleet by the turn of the 24th century, as befitting their vastly greater population on the homeworld. The Vulcanoid Romulans, always resented for their appearance (which reminded the Romulans of their defeat) and latent telepathic abilities, were the subject of great bigotry on the homeworld. That bigotry evolved into out-and-out genocide and forced relocation on many occasions since they were no longer militarily necessary and protected from harm as such. Millions were exiled to Remus to oversee the mines, ostensibly "for their own protection" from the Romulan populace according to the government. Over the next 80 years they often interbred with the native Reman population, thus producing telepathic Reman/Romulan hybrids.

By the late 24th century a non-ridged Romulans was an extremely rare sight on Romulus itself, and one who openly displayed their telepathic abilities even less so. Many of the non-ridged Romulans who lived on Remus were killed in the uprising of Shinzon, so they may be close to extinction.
 
Ridges? Probably a random genetic trait, like red hair in humans. More prevalent in the elite of the old warrior Vulcans that became the Romulans, and hence more prevalent among modern day Romulans than Vulcans. Is that good enough?
 
Not just 24th Century Romulans, the ENT Romulans have that look also.

And in Star Trek 6, the Romulan in the movie had the old look despite this movie being filmed when TNG was running.
Probably because Berman never saw TUC, or didn't even bother to watch it. Like with all TOS episodes.
 
I have to say I take issue with the explanation that the Romulans naturally "evolved" from the Vulcan baseline, after all it's been what, a few thousand years since the time of Surak? Not even a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms.

The way I see it there are two main possibilities here. 1) The Romulans are actually a throwback or a parallel line of Vulcan ancestry (as evidenced by the Mintakans being classed as proto-Vulcan.) Or 2) The difference is a result of Reman cross-breeding.
Of course it could be both as the Remans could the the Vulcan equivalent of Neanderthals.
Though my personal theory is that the Reman population are the descendants of Vulcan "Augments" hence their increased physical and psychic abilities, which would be consistent with what little we know of the Romulan exodus. That is that the enemies of Surak's movement ("those who marched beneath the Raptor's wings") used Psionic weapons (like the Stone of Gol) and were defeated partly due to Surak's teaching rendering such weapons ineffective.

So you can interpret that as the "Romulan" faction finding their advantage lost, their planet in ruins and with a large number of genetically engineered slave soldiers on hand decided to up sticks and move. Obviously the Remens being genetically superior would make them a direct threat which is why they were imprisoned as a slave race on Remus. Presumably the prospect of serving as a soldier is preferable to the mines (in which only the very fittest would survive) and perhaps if a Reman survives their service in the Military they are offered freedom, which explains how they could be a motivated and effective fighting force. I believe the Roman Empire had a similar system and it worked quite well for them.
So with a small percentage of them earning their freedom and living on Romulus we have the potential for the intermarriage of "pure" Vulcan and the engineered Remans, so after a few millennia the majority (if not the totality) of the Romulan population actually have at least some Reman heritage. So while most have the ridges there's still a good percentage that have little or no Reman ancestry at all, of in which the "ridge genes" are recessive. This would account for how a Vulcan could walk openly without drawing any undue attention and for the odd appearance of the non-ridged Vulcans.

This theory could also answer the question as to how come Romulans don't display the "animal passions" of their Vulcan cousins. It's possible that cross-breeding with the Reman line has brought some "mongrul strength" and somehow stabilised the bloodline
to be more rational...if a little paranoid. ;)

Of course the idea that the Remans were native to Remus when the Romulans arrived is also possible, but the similarities between them are in my mind too great to be a coincidence.
 
Yep, that's why Trek had Gorkon's blood being pink when it was already established in the TNG episodes that came before TUC that Klingons had red blood.
 
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