Spoilers Star Trek: Lower Decks 2x08 - "I, Excretus"

[Crewman6]

which has always been really stupid. I mean, why wouldn’t the force field block a generic energy weapon or literal projectile, especially during what was already a hostile situation?

It's just always the way they've worked. They do things that at first seem illogical to us, but are part of their methodology.

It works out pretty well for them. They literally don't care about individual drones and happily sacrifice them willy-nilly.

Q even says the first Borg to visit the Enterprise is just there to "gather information."

Heck, why do the Borg ignore hostile invaders on their own ships until they are directly attacked?

It's just how they do things. Singular, focused. Not thinking outside the box, but overwhelming their opponents with force when the time comes.

Why did that first cube let the Enterprise blast it to pieces at first? They probably could have stopped it. But they didn't. They learned from it, regenerated, and came back stronger later with the knowledge they then needed to be unstoppable.

By the same token, it's perfectly fine to let a drone or two get blasted by a machine gun. Because that will never happen again.

It's just how they do things. It's strange. It's alien. It's supposed to strike us as odd and counterintuitive until we realize that they've just been gathering info the whole time to then come back and completely kick our asses.

Not to mention that the borg shields seem to work the exact opposite way other force fields do in Star Trek: usually you have to modulate a beam (or torpedo…somehow!) at a precise frequency to get trough, the borg personal shields don’t protect from anything they are already prepared to protect from for some reason.

Actually, that's not how shields work in Trek. That's how you "cheat", like in "Generations", but the vast majority of the time, people aren't attacking by sussing out the specific shield frequency and shooting through them.

They just pound and pound on "raised shields" until they eventually weaken and fall.

And there's nothing inconsistent about what we've seen with the Borg. They literally let themselves get shot so they can learn about the weapons their enemies are using. Note we've never seen a Borg shield go up that DIDN'T work. The shields only activate once they've figured out how to stop them.

 

[dswynne1]

Call me when they have LEGO Star Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

Call me when they have LEGO Star Trek.

I mean, that would be amazing but I believe Mattel still has the rights on that one.

 

[NCC-73515]

https://www.brothers-brick.com/2019...nine-is-so-huge-i-can-practically-fit-inside/

 

[jackoverfull]

Heck, why do the Borg ignore hostile invaders on their own ships until they are directly attacked?

yes, this has been pretty stupid as well.

By the same token, it's perfectly fine to let a drone or two get blasted by a machine gun. Because that will never happen again.

but it DOES happen again. Just not in the same episode, but next week the borg happily go down for a few shots of federation phasers, even when they should know very well which kind of weapon Starfleet uses. Or, back to the bullet, that a bullet shot at a a drone is something that’s better blocked.

Actually, that's not how shields work in Trek. That's how you "cheat", like in "Generations", but the vast majority of the time, people aren't attacking by sussing out the specific shield frequency and shooting through them.

sure, but just because they don’t KNOW the frequency the shields are operating at.

 

[Crewman6]

yes, this has been pretty stupid as well.

No, it's not stupid. To YOU it's stupid. Not to them. Works perfectly fine for them. You're not putting yourself into the Borg mindset.

but it DOES happen again. Just not in the same episode, but next week the borg happily go down for a few shots of federation phasers, even when they should know very well which kind of weapon Starfleet uses.

Well, maybe you have to chalk this up to writers' fiat. You can maybe make a case that hand phasers shouldn't have ever worked again after "Q, Who", but maybe the phasers are just different enough to let them get off a couple of shots. You're right, in every new instance, (BOBW, First Contact), the phasers work again, if only briefly. Heck, maybe those specific cubes and not yet gotten that particular software patch yet. Or, more likely, the phasers had changed just enough to throw them off. Or they just always start from scratch in every new encounter to gauge their enemies. You think they wouldn't have to keep doing that, but who knows?

Or, back to the bullet, that a bullet shot at a a drone is something that’s better blocked.

That's not the point. It was a new weapon to those Borg so they wouldn't block it at first. Stop fighting it and accept that's how they do business even if YOU don't agree with it. You're not a Borg. They're doing just fine without your help.

sure, but just because they don’t KNOW the frequency the shields are operating at.

But no one goes into battle expecting they'll be able to sneakily penetrate the shields in this fashion. They go into battle knowing that, the vast majority of the time, they'll just have to pound away at the shields until they weaken.

Heck, maybe that's how the Jem Hadar were able to shoot instantly through Federation shields during those first encounters, because they had that capability. But it certainly took our heroes by surprise as that's not ordinarily how it works.

 

[UssGlenn]

Borg personal shields simply don't have the power to put up broad spectrum defenses like Starship shields do. A Borg drone would burn through all their power reserves in a couple shots, and then their shields would be down and they would get eliminated. The only way to keep shields up for an extended period of time is to only guard against specialized frequencies. Basically a Shield that guards against 1000 frequencies takes 1000 times more power than a shield that guards against one. So after 5 drones get killed the rest of the drones put up shields against those 5 frequencies, and their power reserves last much longer.

 

[jackoverfull]

No, it's not stupid. To YOU it's stupid. Not to them. Works perfectly fine for them. You're not putting yourself into the Borg mindset.

yeah, of course to me. People have differences of opinion about real world events and items, imagine about something fictional and often incoherent.

That's not the point. It was a new weapon to those Borg so they wouldn't block it at first. Stop fighting it and accept that's how they do business even if YOU don't agree with it. You're not a Borg. They're doing just fine without your help.

a projectile is hardly a new weapon.

But don’t worry, I love the borg as they are (especially on early TNG, where they were truly scary) and wouldn’t change them, I am just pointing out how some things don’t make sense.

But no one goes into battle expecting they'll be able to sneakily penetrate the shields in this fashion. They go into battle knowing that, the vast majority of the time, they'll just have to pound away at the shields until they weaken.

exactly. So? My point is that you can go trough most shields if you know the frequency they ignore while borg shields ignore all frequencies but a few specific ones.

The fact that it’s potentially impossible to find out the shield frequency of your enemy’s ship without a spy on board has nothing to do with this fact.

Borg personal shields simply don't have the power to put up broad spectrum defenses like Starship shields do.

yes, this is the most popular fan explanation and one of the most sensible ones (far more believable than the “studying the enemy” one above), unfortunately it’s not canon yet.

There is I think a single (minor) issue with this explanation, I believe: that we’ve (rarely) seen better personal shields, shields that don’t have this limitation, operated by other races. The borg are supposed to be very advanced but their personal shields technology isn’t. This objection is simpler to counter, though, by noting that simpler drones are relatively cheap and a better shield wouldn’t be worth it.

 

[fireproof78]

The Borg operate a simple cost/benefit analysis. A drone simply doesn't cost enough to ensure shields be outfitted to defend against all possibilities. Even if they could anticipate such an attack, little information would be gained.

 

[jackoverfull]

The Borg operate a simple cost/benefit analysis. A drone simply doesn't cost enough to ensure shields be outfitted to defend against all possibilities. Even if they could anticipate such an attack, little information would be gained.

also, we know that they retrieve their dead…what for if not to repair or at least recycle them? After all what for us is a dead body for them might be a drone in need of a few additional implants to become operative again.

 

[fireproof78]

also, we know that they retrieve their dead…what for if not to repair or at least recycle them? After all what for us is a dead body for them might be a drone in need of a few additional implants to become operative again.

Indeed. Information can be gained in a variety of ways, including by a drone dying. A drone's death isn't a threat to the Collective. Even an entire Cube's destruction isn't a threat to the Collective. So, why worry about ensuring all types of projectiles can be accounted for when you can learn, adapt, and retrieve as the situation requires it.

 

[Tim Thomason]

yes, this is the most popular fan explanation and one of the most sensible ones (far more believable than the “studying the enemy” one above), unfortunately it’s not canon yet.

Both can be true. But the third theory still lays unexplored. That the Borg who was shot down by Picard (the valiant Ensign Lynch) was merely one of several wranglers sent by his Queen to keep Locutus busy and maybe ferret him downstairs to taunt him about Data. They were all cannon fodder not meant to overpower one of their betters.

 

[Crewman6]

also, we know that they retrieve their dead…what for if not to repair or at least recycle them? After all what for us is a dead body for them might be a drone in need of a few additional implants to become operative again.

No, they don't retrieve their dead. They remove relevant circuits and the dead self-destruct (vaporize.)

You can hardly criticize the borg methodology if you don't know how it actually works.

yes, this is the most popular fan explanation and one of the most sensible ones (far more believable than the “studying the enemy” one above), unfortunately it’s not canon yet.

The canon explanation is perfectly believable and was literally explained the first time we meet the Borg. It's how they do things. Once they learn how to defeat an enemy's weapon, that enemy can never use it again. Seems like a pretty great system, actually. Losing 2-3 drones in the process is a very small price to pay since they aren't individuals.

You keep misunderstanding it on purpose. It doesn't make the system dumb.

exactly. So? My point is that you can go trough most shields if you know the frequency they ignore while borg shields ignore all frequencies but a few specific ones.

Wrong again. After a few instances of trial and error (phasers work, then they don't, the crew adjusts the frequency, they work again, but once or twice until the adaptation is complete), the Borg shields then work against all phasers, all the time. So it's a learning curve, but it soon leads to a flawless defense.

 

[cooleddie74]

Luckily for Archer and Reed they only needed to encounter the drones on the modified Arctic research vessel and there were just a handful of them. Remember that at least one drone on the NX-01 adapted to Reed's phase pistol and the security team had to retreat.

Had Archer and Reed remained on the research vessel they might well have been killed or assimilated. Those phase pistols weren't going to be effective for very long.

 

[Michael]

You can hardly criticize the borg methodology if you don't know how it actually works.

You keep misunderstanding it on purpose. It doesn't make the system dumb.

You guys can discuss this highly interesting topic ad nauseam for all I care. But this kind of language is unnecessarily confrontational, which kind of is a theme with you, I might add. Just watch your tone and stay civil. If you can't, just keep out of this discussion altogether.

 

[Crewman6]

You guys can discuss this highly interesting topic ad nauseam for all I care. But this kind of language is unnecessarily confrontational, which kind of is a theme with you, I might add. Just watch your tone and stay civil. If you can't, just keep out of this discussion altogether.

But what if the topic isn't really that interesting....?

 

[Michael]

But what if the topic isn't really that interesting....?

Even less reason to get all worked up about it, I guess?

 

[Super Grover]

Had to go back and watch it again before I made my rating which means nothing of course. I'm going with an 8, it would have been lower, but I think it gets better on repeated viewings.

my notes: sorry, it's a lot to read

the repeating time loop distress signal was a nice touch. It was a callback without being too much of a callback.

aaaaand they left us.

See, we're laughing. Please never change your cheerful optimistic self, Tendi.

The Drill instructor was more of a lame motivational speaker that routinely showed up at your high school. It's great that they're making more references to TAS, which always seemed to be the more forgotten series.

Did anyone else want to see Barnes's Whale Rescue drill?

Is it weird that I like that the Terran Empire is still around. Yes I did read the TNG Mirror Broken comic, which makes sense and the Dark Mirror novel (which was published before DS9 revisited the mirror universe) Mirror Billups is horny for torture...lol. It's probably easier to draw the TOS style mirror universe uniforms than the Discovery style. Oh yes, and Boimler can't grow a decent mustache. Body Snatchers LOL!

Does Rutherford not wear socks? Nice seeing the Monster Maroon TWOK uniforms. Would have liked to see more of the Constitution refit before it got blowed up. Though we did see the bridge of the Miranda Class earlier this season, which was just the same set re used for both ships.

Oh God, Naked time the more daring Mariner was grossed out, 'Hey that is an anus!" till she noticed Barnes and Jennifer, was kind of intrigued, but nope'd out when Boimler was all spread eagled. I jumped back when I saw it the first time too, I'm with you there Mariner. I'd hate to think how I'd act or what I would do if I was infected in that situation.

This is the second episode in a row that mentioned Boimler has patchy skin and needs to drink more water. Both by evil cybernetic/AI beings.

I'ts good to see that Mariner isn't always good at everything

Why is Tendi at the helm? she's medical.

Why are they shaped like this! gotta love those strangely geometric shaped containers.

I've never been a huge Italian food person, but I want to try Pesto now. I'm still not sure about lobster mac and cheese with breaded top

Alice Krige! It's kind of our thing.

Empathy, we assimilated it.

I didn't realize there were more Crystalline Entities.

I thought I was a triple threat...ugh cringe.

anyone else wanted to see Freeman go to the brig for the simulation?

Dr T'ana sharing the bunk with Shax was so adorable. Anyone who shares their bed with their dog or cat knows what's up.

call it, time of life 0900.

Boimler pulled the old Superman defense in the borg simulation. Whenever some criminal realizes bullets don't harm Supes, they then throw their gun at him. Love the gag of him repeating the test taking more and more drones and babies with him each time.

anyone else want some plushie borg babies?

Freeman endangering the ship just to expose the rigged conditions and fraudulent instructor. Not one of the greatest ideas, but it's the most Cerritos thing to do.

And they did learn a lesson after all.

 

[Crewman6]

Even less reason to get all worked up about it, I guess?

I agree. That other guy really needs to chill....

 

[Michael]

I agree. That other guy really needs to chill....

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