Man Trap Versus Turnabout Intruder
- Thread starter Spock's Barber
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Both were rather preposterous.
MT: Setting aside the nightmare-fodder aspect (all the moreso for me because the "McCoy's young Nancy" appearance of the salt vampire bore a more-than-passing resemblance to one of the teachers at my elementary school at the time), the whole premise of a life form that somehow metabolizes sodium chloride in such a way as to permanently remove it from the environment makes no sense. There are relatively few chlorine compounds that permanently take chlorine (or the chloride ion) out of circulation (only CFCs and chlorinated hydrocarbons come to mind), and even fewer sodium compounds that permanently take sodium out of circulation (sodium bismuthate is one of a handful to show up on a Google search for insoluble sodium compounds, and even though it's not water soluble, it is rather reactive).
TI: The concept of "Complete life-entity transfer with the aid of a mechanical device" is hardly any better (although conceivably, it's not that much of a stretch in a milieu in which the Klingon mind-sifter exists, and in which Vulcans can transfer katra via a mind meld).
MT: Setting aside the nightmare-fodder aspect (all the moreso for me because the "McCoy's young Nancy" appearance of the salt vampire bore a more-than-passing resemblance to one of the teachers at my elementary school at the time), the whole premise of a life form that somehow metabolizes sodium chloride in such a way as to permanently remove it from the environment makes no sense. There are relatively few chlorine compounds that permanently take chlorine (or the chloride ion) out of circulation (only CFCs and chlorinated hydrocarbons come to mind), and even fewer sodium compounds that permanently take sodium out of circulation (sodium bismuthate is one of a handful to show up on a Google search for insoluble sodium compounds, and even though it's not water soluble, it is rather reactive).
TI: The concept of "Complete life-entity transfer with the aid of a mechanical device" is hardly any better (although conceivably, it's not that much of a stretch in a milieu in which the Klingon mind-sifter exists, and in which Vulcans can transfer katra via a mind meld).
Probably a good thing that they overshot there.
True. But TOS also made it amply clear that the ship was pressed for time at every turn - she was too busy to save the lives of millions in "The Galileo Seven", say, instead merely carrying the vital medication halfway, to a rendezvous (a key plot point that allowed Kirk to spend time searching for his missing crew). Certainly no timeslot there for dropping salt to a creature that doesn't even want it.
What Starfleet might have done instead is send an even lesser vessel to drop people condemned to death to the planet, because that's what the vampire actually needed in order to survive. But Starfleet might not have those in great supply. And it would still amount to nothing but torture. Tellingly, it's the Doctor who chooses to terminate the miserable no-life of the creature, probably being the ethically best qualified person on board to make the judgement. But it's not as if the rest of the heroes would demonstrate a sadistic streak here, either, with inane schemes of marooning this last-of-its-kind in a personal hell.
(That only happens several episodes later, in "Space Seed".
)The bookend episodes mesh well there. In both, the adversary desperately wants something it/she(?) can never be allowed to get, because giving it would run contrary to all sense and ethics. The monster in the first doesn't want innocent sodium chloride (and apparently never did), but wanton slaughter of people; the monster in the last doesn't want innocent starship command (and apparently never did), but the ruination of Kirk.
Timo Saloniemi
Then if that were true initially then I think they changed their minds though the series in Court Martial and Bread and Circuses, the Ultimate Computer Kirk's captaincy is a big deal.
Throughout the show, really. Or what do you feel would be a "glamorous" mission?
Well, not really. In "Court Martial", Kirk is literally one out of thousands at the very most ("one man in a million"); in "Bread and Circuses", his job ranks slightly above that of a civilian skipper who flunked SF Academy on an extra year and sold his crew to gladiator games ("what do they call the one to graduate the last in his Academy class?"); and in "Ultimate Computer", Kirk is to be replaced by a computer.
Starships are important things, but Kirk's is not all that rare in the company, and Kirk himself doesn't appear to stand out at all. The only ones to grant him personal recognition are a genocidal madman and a Klingon, and the former refers to his warrior antics in his youth, while the latter hails him as the captain of the famed Enterprise rather than by name (thus probably actually hailing the achievements of Pike!).
Timo Saloniemi
Well, not really. In "Court Martial", Kirk is literally one out of thousands at the very most ("one man in a million"); in "Bread and Circuses", his job ranks slightly above that of a civilian skipper who flunked SF Academy on an extra year and sold his crew to gladiator games ("what do they call the one to graduate the last in his Academy class?"); and in "Ultimate Computer", Kirk is to be replaced by a computer.
Starships are important things, but Kirk's is not all that rare in the company, and Kirk himself doesn't appear to stand out at all. The only ones to grant him personal recognition are a genocidal madman and a Klingon, and the former refers to his warrior antics in his youth, while the latter hails him as the captain of the famed Enterprise rather than by name (thus probably actually hailing the achievements of Pike!).
Timo Saloniemi
Geez what does Kirk have to do to rate.
He's saved Deneva, saved us from the Ultimate Computer, the giant amoeba thingy, the Lazarus incident, that cloud creature. What the hell are the first rate captains up to then?
Hmh? Kirk being low on the totem pole shouldn't be detrimental to his heroism in any way. Cop shows rarely require the hero to be Chief Commissioner or anything, and indeed being the underdog generally makes your hero armor shine all the brighter.
But in-universe, I gather the captains of important ships perform important missions. In classic naval terms, this would mean attending parties while the hugely expensive and important ships floated in the safety of major ports, menacing the enemy into submission by never sailing out. But since Starfleet apparently runs its witnessed ships ragged, and still suffers from undercapacity and often arrives too late, the "fleet in being" concept probably doesn't apply, and the unseen big and shiny ships do one of the following:
1) Wage major battles (rather than sideshows like Organia) during declared wars
2) Show the flag where it counts (rather than declare one's ship superfluous to that shit, as on Altair)
3) Be there to help those in need during an emergency (rather than after it)
4) Be the first to respond (rather than the one to mop up)
Really, "fleet in being" aside, Star Trek plays out pretty much like the classic sailing navy, with Kirk's ship a cruiser (or, in 19th century equivalent terms, a frigate) that gets to have adventures specifically because she isn't first-rate or (literally) even third-rate. Horatio Hornblower and all. But little of that goes away in the 20th century, either, and the writers and the audience would probably have been thinking in those terms, with Kirk the cruiser or even destroyer skipper who gets to do all the good stuff, often even during peacetime...
(It's a slightly different issue whether any of Kirk's achievements were considered special or noteworthy, back in his day or later on. The spinoff shows would suggest this was not the case: a great many ship captains get to save the galaxy, even when their command isn't the Flagship of the Federation or much of a performer. And indeed Kirk is a virtual unknown to Picard, despite the latter man sailing a namesake ship, and specific adventures don't really get name-drops.)
Timo Saloniemi
But in-universe, I gather the captains of important ships perform important missions. In classic naval terms, this would mean attending parties while the hugely expensive and important ships floated in the safety of major ports, menacing the enemy into submission by never sailing out. But since Starfleet apparently runs its witnessed ships ragged, and still suffers from undercapacity and often arrives too late, the "fleet in being" concept probably doesn't apply, and the unseen big and shiny ships do one of the following:
1) Wage major battles (rather than sideshows like Organia) during declared wars
2) Show the flag where it counts (rather than declare one's ship superfluous to that shit, as on Altair)
3) Be there to help those in need during an emergency (rather than after it)
4) Be the first to respond (rather than the one to mop up)
Really, "fleet in being" aside, Star Trek plays out pretty much like the classic sailing navy, with Kirk's ship a cruiser (or, in 19th century equivalent terms, a frigate) that gets to have adventures specifically because she isn't first-rate or (literally) even third-rate. Horatio Hornblower and all. But little of that goes away in the 20th century, either, and the writers and the audience would probably have been thinking in those terms, with Kirk the cruiser or even destroyer skipper who gets to do all the good stuff, often even during peacetime...
(It's a slightly different issue whether any of Kirk's achievements were considered special or noteworthy, back in his day or later on. The spinoff shows would suggest this was not the case: a great many ship captains get to save the galaxy, even when their command isn't the Flagship of the Federation or much of a performer. And indeed Kirk is a virtual unknown to Picard, despite the latter man sailing a namesake ship, and specific adventures don't really get name-drops.)
Timo Saloniemi
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We've never seen a better ship than the Enterprise in TOS.
On our side that is.
Weve seen references to Kirk being a big deal.
Picard not knowing of him means nothing. He's not the sort of person Picard would admire, liking adventure, not condemning species to death because it would break the Prime Directive. Janeway and Sisko knew of Kirk.
On our side that is.
Weve seen references to Kirk being a big deal.
Picard not knowing of him means nothing. He's not the sort of person Picard would admire, liking adventure, not condemning species to death because it would break the Prime Directive. Janeway and Sisko knew of Kirk.
What we saw or didn't see in TOS is basically a vast volume consisting of page upon empty page of the latter thing. That show never could afford to actually show anything much, and it... shows.
It's in storytelling where Kirk never is anything special, apart from being "our" captain. And where his ship never is anything special, apart from being his ship. Does he or she get mentioned in dispatches? We never hear. But Captain Dunsel doesn't get a mention, either. Then again, Captain Tracey does - there are Kirks in the fleet, and then there are Traceys, folks Kirk looks up to, for purely dramatic purposes.
Kirk being the second best is something of a dramatic point, too. Were he the first into the fire, he'd be dead. But he gets to mop up after the A Team fails, so he has better odds of survival. Or then he hits an adventure by accident - it's truly remarkable that Starfleet never sends him into one, unless in response to the failure of the first team to try. His greatest galaxy-saving achievements come because he's the ship that happens on the spot. Part of that happening may be due to him being particularly mobile. But it isn't plausibly due to him being unique, ergo, the galaxy must be in danger outside Kirk's field of vision, too (and ours), and nevertheless gets saved.
Timo Saloniemi
It's in storytelling where Kirk never is anything special, apart from being "our" captain. And where his ship never is anything special, apart from being his ship. Does he or she get mentioned in dispatches? We never hear. But Captain Dunsel doesn't get a mention, either. Then again, Captain Tracey does - there are Kirks in the fleet, and then there are Traceys, folks Kirk looks up to, for purely dramatic purposes.
Kirk being the second best is something of a dramatic point, too. Were he the first into the fire, he'd be dead. But he gets to mop up after the A Team fails, so he has better odds of survival. Or then he hits an adventure by accident - it's truly remarkable that Starfleet never sends him into one, unless in response to the failure of the first team to try. His greatest galaxy-saving achievements come because he's the ship that happens on the spot. Part of that happening may be due to him being particularly mobile. But it isn't plausibly due to him being unique, ergo, the galaxy must be in danger outside Kirk's field of vision, too (and ours), and nevertheless gets saved.
Timo Saloniemi
They were first at Organia, Deneva, Miri's planet, I think they were also sent out first to "The Changeling"
Second-rate in the naval sense, not in the quality sense. For one thing, the Bible says it's a heavy cruiser. (as opposed to a battleship or even a battlecruiser).
Horatio Hornblower was one of the RN's most exceptional and lauded captains, but he still commanded frigates most of his career. The Enterprise seems to be the equivalent of a frigate, not a ship-of-the-line.
But not once did they mention any bigger or better ships than the Constellation Class in TOS Starfleet. Not once.
Maybe its in the show's bible but not on screen.
Like at Organia they say they have to wait for the rest of the fleet no they have to wait for the big ships or better ships to arrive. Never.
In the movies the Excelsior was a big deal to replace the Enterprise at the top of the heap.
And several times during the series they mentioned that Kirk was one of the few who could command a starship like it was something important/spectacular/something to be admired. I don't think it would have been so admired if it was just an average ship.
In Court Martial theres a big chart on the Constellation Class ships on it, no other better bigger ships and if Kirk were a minor captain then whats the big deal about him disgracing the fleet.
I know just because they didn't mention them doesn't mean they didn't exist you know like women captains.
Maybe its in the show's bible but not on screen.
Like at Organia they say they have to wait for the rest of the fleet no they have to wait for the big ships or better ships to arrive. Never.
In the movies the Excelsior was a big deal to replace the Enterprise at the top of the heap.
And several times during the series they mentioned that Kirk was one of the few who could command a starship like it was something important/spectacular/something to be admired. I don't think it would have been so admired if it was just an average ship.
In Court Martial theres a big chart on the Constellation Class ships on it, no other better bigger ships and if Kirk were a minor captain then whats the big deal about him disgracing the fleet.
I know just because they didn't mention them doesn't mean they didn't exist you know like women captains.
Starship Class.
Mebbe Constitution. And that chart is debatable since it reads STAR SHIP STATUS not “Constitution”.
Nobody in the 60’s would make a sci-fi series about a low class starship without it being a comedy. The Enterprise was obviously meant to be manned by the best (Kirk’s record is impressive, Spock is the best first officer in the fleet, etc.). They’re just not the (or a) flagship. That’s no dishonor.
The Enterprise is out there on the frontier, making first contacts. They were sent to explore the edge of the galaxy and even though they weren’t the first, the Valiant being there first was a surprise.
Kirk was initially a solider (“not a diplomat”) but later on (when budget cuts meant fewer guest stars) Kirk was doing diplomatic missions. They were sent to a number of planets before anyone else. They also did supply missions, picked up ambassadors, performed rescues and investigated weird space phenomena.
They did all of these things because space is big and the Enterprise was responsible for whatever area of space they were assigned. Sometimes they did really important stuff, other times they fell into emergencies while doing something more mundane. Obviously every time we saw them, something exciting happened (it would be a boring show if we just watched them shoot craps for an hour). The Enterprise wasn’t a legend while the series was going on. They became legendary because of those missions. And even then, that wasn’t until later. Starfleet seemed pretty blasé about them in the movies for a time, making the Enterprise a training vessel, decommissioning her and not immediately assigning the crew a new one. Once Kirk and company saved the whales, they started being treated a little more like heroes.
The Enterprise is out there on the frontier, making first contacts. They were sent to explore the edge of the galaxy and even though they weren’t the first, the Valiant being there first was a surprise.
Kirk was initially a solider (“not a diplomat”) but later on (when budget cuts meant fewer guest stars) Kirk was doing diplomatic missions. They were sent to a number of planets before anyone else. They also did supply missions, picked up ambassadors, performed rescues and investigated weird space phenomena.
They did all of these things because space is big and the Enterprise was responsible for whatever area of space they were assigned. Sometimes they did really important stuff, other times they fell into emergencies while doing something more mundane. Obviously every time we saw them, something exciting happened (it would be a boring show if we just watched them shoot craps for an hour). The Enterprise wasn’t a legend while the series was going on. They became legendary because of those missions. And even then, that wasn’t until later. Starfleet seemed pretty blasé about them in the movies for a time, making the Enterprise a training vessel, decommissioning her and not immediately assigning the crew a new one. Once Kirk and company saved the whales, they started being treated a little more like heroes.
There is no indication that the Enterprise was the one lone ship visiting M113 once a year, nor was I suggesting they be the ship to come back every year. In fact, it's pretty clear this was their first visit:
MCCOY: Yeah, a little bit, I guess. You see, we walked out of each other's lives ten years ago. She married Crater, and for all I know she may have forgotten me completely. Of all the bonehead ideas, Jim, how'd I let myself in for things like this?
And
SPOCK: Check out perfectly. They arrived here nearly five years ago. Visited by various vessels, made fairly heavy shipments out, of artefacts and reports. However, there has been a marked drop in shipments during the last year.
So, seriously, alllllllll of those vessels just need to drop off salt and other provisions.
Kirk was big on setting up a plan and letting the Federation or Starfleet (or UESPA or space command or whatever) implement it. All they would have to do is keep their regular runs.
To what end? That's the part that I don't get. Why would starships go to the planet that no longer is making those heavy shipments out, only to deliver something this creature clearly does not want?
Offering salt tablets to the creature was a step taken by both Crater and Kirk. Both failed to make the vampire stop killing people, in situations where killing was basically guaranteed to block access to salt tablets at the very least, even if it didn't directly result in the creature getting itself killed. Clearly, offering compressed sodum chloride is cruel torture and nothing more.
And the part where Starfleet insists on this torture for reason X is the one not supported by any other bit of TOS or Trek. You don't save the last of the buffalo by dumping it on a parking lot with a salt lick. And you don't pretend that you are saving it that way if you want a reputation as a friend rather than foe of animals.
Timo Saloniemi
Offering salt tablets to the creature was a step taken by both Crater and Kirk. Both failed to make the vampire stop killing people, in situations where killing was basically guaranteed to block access to salt tablets at the very least, even if it didn't directly result in the creature getting itself killed. Clearly, offering compressed sodum chloride is cruel torture and nothing more.
And the part where Starfleet insists on this torture for reason X is the one not supported by any other bit of TOS or Trek. You don't save the last of the buffalo by dumping it on a parking lot with a salt lick. And you don't pretend that you are saving it that way if you want a reputation as a friend rather than foe of animals.
Timo Saloniemi
Presumably saving (or at least not killing) the last of a species is part of the mission of the Federation. The “marked drop in shipments” can be chalked up to Crater’s grief, searching for ways to feed the creature as well as learning about this lost species (he seemed to know a lot about it).
Crater WAS feeding it salt for at least a year, but when the landing party arrived, its instincts took over. With just a few tablets left, it was probably on short rations and really hungry. It is still an animal with survival instincts. It refused Kirk’s salt because it was still trying to stay alive using McCoy as a shield. Had “Nancy” taken the salt, that protection would have been gone. Kirk was standing there with a handful of salt and a phaser. He wasn’t trying to calm it down and be nice, he was obviously trying to kill it. He stated as much in the briefing room. Of course the creature wouldn’t walk up and take the salt. It wasn't fussy about where it came from, considering how it was hungrily staring at the salt on Janice's tray. So, nope, granulated or compressed salt isn't torture, even though you keep using the word. Crater just wanted supplies of salt, he didn't specific that it had to be mixed with blood or anything.
With sufficient supplies, it wouldn’t need to feed on humans. An agreement with Crater could be made to get back to damned work and send out more stuff. Or allow him to research this species so the can know things. Knowledge is also important to the Federation. Nobody needs to beam down and risk their lives other than Crater. They can drop off boxcars of salt, Crater could beam up and get his exam and go back down. Very little change in routine.
The point is, the discussion wasn’t made. Kirk never considered it. Spock never considered it. Again, had this been written later in the season, it WOULD have been considered. Yes, without being able to breed, the species would have died out eventually, but why not allow it to live out its life if you can make it happen? Crater was willing to have a go at it. If the creature wound up killing Crater after all, well, you pays your money, you takes your chances.
Crater WAS feeding it salt for at least a year, but when the landing party arrived, its instincts took over. With just a few tablets left, it was probably on short rations and really hungry. It is still an animal with survival instincts. It refused Kirk’s salt because it was still trying to stay alive using McCoy as a shield. Had “Nancy” taken the salt, that protection would have been gone. Kirk was standing there with a handful of salt and a phaser. He wasn’t trying to calm it down and be nice, he was obviously trying to kill it. He stated as much in the briefing room. Of course the creature wouldn’t walk up and take the salt. It wasn't fussy about where it came from, considering how it was hungrily staring at the salt on Janice's tray. So, nope, granulated or compressed salt isn't torture, even though you keep using the word. Crater just wanted supplies of salt, he didn't specific that it had to be mixed with blood or anything.
With sufficient supplies, it wouldn’t need to feed on humans. An agreement with Crater could be made to get back to damned work and send out more stuff. Or allow him to research this species so the can know things. Knowledge is also important to the Federation. Nobody needs to beam down and risk their lives other than Crater. They can drop off boxcars of salt, Crater could beam up and get his exam and go back down. Very little change in routine.
The point is, the discussion wasn’t made. Kirk never considered it. Spock never considered it. Again, had this been written later in the season, it WOULD have been considered. Yes, without being able to breed, the species would have died out eventually, but why not allow it to live out its life if you can make it happen? Crater was willing to have a go at it. If the creature wound up killing Crater after all, well, you pays your money, you takes your chances.
Hmm. Maybe one of these years, I'll share a "Captain Sulu" fanfic I wrote for a short story workshop class, "Interview with Dr. Ambrose Crater, or 'The Salt Vampire Ate my Parents'."
Funny thing: over my four semesters in that class, I wrote exactly two ST fanfics. The other one was a Borg origin story. I loathe both MT and Borg stories. Go figure.
Funny thing: over my four semesters in that class, I wrote exactly two ST fanfics. The other one was a Borg origin story. I loathe both MT and Borg stories. Go figure.
Indeed. The salt vampire was obviously sentient; how else could he/she/it have convincingly passed as human? Later in the season, we encounter a "murdering monster" who was attacking a mining colony, and who was resistant to phaser fire. Turned out to be a mother protecting the eggs of the next generation of her species.
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