What tropes in science fiction annoy you?

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I recognise actions and behaviours I think are harmful, nihilistic, destructive, and unproductive. I recognise actions and behaviours that are beneficial, life-affirming, constructive, and productive. However, I have no metric by which I can measure such things and ascribe degrees of goodness or badness so I choose not to ascribe those labels to them. Who is most evil by your criteria - Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Joseph Stalin, or Adolf Hitler? I'm not going there.

You shouldn't care what the universe thinks for as far I know, it can't - I might be wrong but as far as I am aware, only humans can judge other humans through the set of rules and values that underpin their societies and we all know how disparate those can be and how that leads to extreme violence and, as you might term it, terrible evil.

ETA: In the SF Dune universe, Paul Atreides can be judged as more "evil" by the cumulative effect of his actions than Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. That's really going to screw with people's heads when they have to realise the falsehood of their initial assumption that Paul is a white saviour. But is he really "evil" if his followers think he's the "good" guy?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Who is most evil

I don't care who is "most" evil. I simply recognize that there IS evil.

Of course there's different degrees of it. That doesn't change the simple fact that it EXISTS.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Oh well, in any case I think it's pointless to continue this discussion as we have different viewpoints that are apparently irreconcilable. You can't prove evil exists beyond it being a purely human construct and I can't prove it doesn't. The terms good and evil are useful to you for labelling things of which you either approve or disapprove. I would say they are insufficient, limiting, obfuscating, and often context dependent.

 

[Commander Troi]

I generally can't stand stories in which the characters are stuck in a time loop.

Kor

I have liked 2 stories where this was done as an obvious homage to Groundhog Day - one was a hysterically funny Stargate SG-1 episode and the other was a Xena episode.

 

[Commander Troi]

I don't care who is "most" evil. I simply recognize that there IS evil.

Of course there's different degrees of it. That doesnt' change the simple fact that it EXISTS.

Oh well, in any case I think it's pointless to continue this discussion as we have different viewpoints that are apparently irreconcilable. You can't prove evil exists beyond it being a purely human construct and I can't prove it doesn't. The terms good and evil are useful to you for labelling things of which you either approve or disapprove. I would say they are insufficient, limiting, obfuscating, and often context dependent.

Ah, philosophy... as much as I enjoyed the classes I took, it's a terrific way to get into a fight.

 

[dupersuper]

Exactly. So given that we all acknowledge the harm they caused...how can anyone not believe in the existence of evil?

I mean, a hurricane causes harm; is it "evil"?

And I should care what "the universe" thinks...why, exactly?

You shouldn't, because it doesn't.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I mean, a hurricane causes harm; is it "evil"?

No, because it's a force of nature. There's no intent.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

There is no such thing as free will so humans do not have intent either but I still think punishment is required to coerce behaviour to benefit society as a whole. It's impossible to chastise a weather system - "naughty hurricane, bad hurricane". One just becomes King Lear.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There is no such thing as free will

So whatever you had for breakfast this morning...somebody forced you to eat it? You had no choice?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

So whatever you had for breakfast this morning...somebody forced you to eat it? You had no choice?

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Ah, philosophy... as much as I enjoyed the classes I took, it's a terrific way to get into a fight.

Dave Barry described it best:

Philosophy is sitting in a small room, deciding there is no such thing as reality, and then going to lunch.

 

[Unicron]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

I remember studying aspects of determinism when I took general philosophy, and I'm still not particularly convinced. While I do think the structure of the universe has some deterministic qualities, and our choices and other personality aspects are partially acquired through our environment, I feel like the arguments against free will existing at all are ultimately too simplistic. The fact that I can contemplate several options and then choose the ones I consider most beneficial doesn't mean the unchosen paths are necessarily wrong or that they couldn't have been chosen either. That's ultimately just a form of fatalism, IMO. But that's a topic worthy of its own thread.

 

[Commander Troi]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Fascinating. I'm going to need to watch these more than once. I must admit that the idea I couldn't have done things any other way than I did is actually rather comforting and freeing. It doesn't mean I can't learn and grow; indeed, the fact I have previously done so means I will probably do so again. I think. Deep stuff, man. The biggest questions both leave me with are 1) where do our wants come from? and 2) how do we decide between competing wants of equal strength?

I'm not entirely convinced though. Mostly, I feel like this:

I remember studying aspects of determinism when I took general philosophy, and I'm still not particularly convinced. While I do think the structure of the universe has some deterministic qualities, and our choices and other personality aspects are partially acquired through our environment, I feel like the arguments against free will existing at all are ultimately too simplistic. The fact that I can contemplate several options and then choose the ones I consider most beneficial doesn't mean the unchosen paths are necessarily wrong or that they couldn't have been chosen either. That's ultimately just a form of fatalism, IMO. But that's a topic worthy of its own thread.

Much like the old "nature vs nurture", I think the answer is actually "both/and" instead of "either/or". But I haven't done enough Deep Thinking recently to discuss it cogently right now.

This is from "Epiphany" in season 2 of Angel. It's been very important to how I think about these things:

Angel: In the greater scheme, in the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win.
Kate: You seem kind of chipper about that.
Angel: Well ... I guess I kind of worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if ... nothing we do matters ... then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long for redemption, for a reward, finally, just to beat the other guy. But I never got it.
Kate: Now you do?
Angel: Not all of it. All I want to do is help. I want to help because I don't think people should suffer as they do, because if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.

Dave Barry described it best:

Philosophy is sitting in a small room, deciding there is no such thing as reality, and then going to lunch.

I love that! In my first year of college, I took an Intro to Philosophy class with my then-boyfriend. I managed to *almost* convince him he didn't exist.

@Unicron - should we create a philosophy thread or would that be just one more place to argue around here?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I remember studying aspects of determinism when I took general philosophy, and I'm still not particularly convinced. While I do think the structure of the universe has some deterministic qualities, and our choices and other personality aspects are partially acquired through our environment, I feel like the arguments against free will existing at all are ultimately too simplistic. The fact that I can contemplate several options and then choose the ones I consider most beneficial doesn't mean the unchosen paths are necessarily wrong or that they couldn't have been chosen either. That's ultimately just a form of fatalism, IMO. But that's a topic worthy of its own thread.

Perhaps that's mixing up free will with freedom to choose. You have a selection of choices but you would either always pick the same one or you pick different ones in different branches of the multiverse (Sabine Hossenfelder thinks that the latter is unscientific and I agree with her, although I suspect it is true nonetheless). Apparent freedom to choose doesn't preclude that the choice is deterministic and that is what both physics and experimental neurobiology strongly suggest is consistent with the observations. Cleverer people than me will probably disagree.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That's ultimately just a form of fatalism, IMO.

Most philosophy is.

Perhaps that's mixing up free will with freedom to choose.

Same diff.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The biggest questions both leave me with are 1) where do our wants come from? and 2) how do we decide between competing wants of equal strength?

1) I believe that's mainly down to the thalamus within the limbic system of the brain. Here's one description. I'm not sure how accurate it is. It's not my field at all. It's an extract from Mapping The Mind by Rita Carter. The synopsis is "Modern brain scans reveal our thoughts, memories, and moods, as clearly as an X-ray reveals our bones. A person's brain will light up on a scan as it registers a joke. This book examines how these findings can be used as a basis to explain aspects of human culture and behaviour."
2) Sometimes we can't, sometimes we go with our gut, often we get it wrong and screw up. I assume there is a mechanism in the brain that allows us to break the deadlock between contradictory impulses from neural circuits. Neural networks usually work on the most active pathway winning.

 

[BK613]

Caught the tail end of Indian Jones and The Temple of Doom today. I'll add to the list underground caverns/mines/complexes that have amusement park thrill rides as part of the installation.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

^ Reminds me of this classic scene from Galaxy Quest…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqVqxWU-Itg

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Galaxy Quest...where tropes go to die.

 

[BK613]

^ Reminds me of this classic scene from Galaxy Quest…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqVqxWU-Itg

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Cheers,
-CM-

I also thought of The Goonies:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies