Spoilers Star Trek: Lower Decks 2x03 - "We'll Always Have Tom Paris"

[Amaris]

The 'Starfleet Marine Corps' fan club used to use a variant of the Monster Maroons...but in BLACK.

Now THAT I'd like to see.

In fact, that's totally going in my headcanon as the 'real' uniforms worn by the in-universe SFMC during the movie era. (And which Colonel West should have worn in ST VI, of course.)

As for the TOS era SFMC..black, as well. But in TOS style.

Yeah, just something about those uniforms really work. I guess from what cast members said they weighed a ton to wear, and were hot, but they looked fantastic. Well, with the collared shirts underneath. I didn't like them without collars, which is what we saw in "Yesterday's Enterprise," and when Wesley met Jack on the holodeck.

 

[cooleddie74]

Ah, yes, the circa 2348-49 version, the last known Monster Maroon variant before Starfleet switched to the TNG Season 1 and 2 "pajamas." But maybe not the worst variant because if you're not going to use the belt or undershirt the TNG commbadge looks better than the Movie Era insignia.

 

[fireproof78]

The 'Starfleet Marine Corps' fan club used to cosplay with a variant of the Monster Maroons...but in BLACK.

Now THAT I'd like to see.

In fact, that's totally going in my headcanon as the 'real' uniforms worn by the in-universe SFMC during the movie era. (And which Colonel West should have worn in ST VI, of course.)

As for the TOS era SFMC..black, as well. But in TOS style.

The Starfleet Marine Corps fan club has a pretty decent variety of uniforms for each era. The Monster Blacks look great though, and fit very well in that style. I think it is such a clean look.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

This image is from a site that sells the monster black unis.


Still needs at least a short collared undershirt.

 

[cooleddie74]

Those would have worked as TOS Movie Era dress uniforms. Put some ribbons and medals on them and they'd be their own beast.

 

[jackoverfull]

As I mentioned above, I don’t have a particular problem with the different uniforms, even if the choice was just up to the commanding officer or quartermaster. But, just for the fun in indulging in speculation…

On Lower Decks? Yes, there were two other Admirals seen in the first season, this unnamed Admiral in Temporal Edict and Admiral Vassery seen Moist Vessel and Crisis Point.

right, thanks!
Still, they were in the chain of command of the Cerritos, so those uniforms still make sense.

There's no justification for different uniforms between the Cerritos and the Titan or the Discovery and the Enterprise.

the Titan is a frontier ship doing all the risky missions, the Cerritos (and most of the ship we’ve seen on the show, even including the Vancouver, which is probably “epic” only in comparison with the Cerritos) is an engineering vessel specialised in clean ups and “boring” missions.

similarly, the Enterprise is a long range, deep space vessel, the Discovery an experimental ship.

In Star Trek V there were five uniform variants depending on the crewmember and mission: the Red Maroons, Kirk's bomber jacket with rank insignia, the landing party/strike team uniforms, the yeoman/cadet-style uniforms and the engineering uniforms seen ever since TMP.

Star Trek has a long tradition with landing uniforms/jacket (just see the cage! But also enterprise, of course) and custom commanding officer uniforms (Kirk green uniforms, picard’s jacket, sisko’s gilet…).

Same goes for less formal fatigues, such as seen far back in TOS (the real reason for these was that they were much less expensive to make than the MMs, of course).

Yeah, just something about those uniforms really work. I guess from what cast members said they weighed a ton to wear, and were hot, but they looked fantastic. Well, with the collared shirts underneath. I didn't like them without collars, which is what we saw in "Yesterday's Enterprise," and when Wesley met Jack on the holodeck.

never cared for these either…the trapunta collars were hard to make (they used a very old trapunta machine in the movies!) and very fragile, by that point in TNG they obviously decided for a simpler look to save time and money.

 

[Crewman6]

the Titan is a frontier ship doing all the risky missions, the Cerritos (and most of the ship we’ve seen on the show, even including the Vancouver, which is probably “epic” only in comparison with the Cerritos) is an engineering vessel specialised in clean ups and “boring” missions.

similarly, the Enterprise is a long range, deep space vessel, the Discovery an experimental ship.

Sorry, but this is a nonsense explanation with absolutely zero canonical support and quite a lot to refute it. Other ships in the Discovery era were shown to have the same Discovery-style uniforms.

Across TNG and DS9, all starship officers from other ships all wore the same uniforms. There's no distinction made between the types of missions you go on and the kind of uniform you have.

Appreciate you trying to come up with a fun theory, but this doesn't track at all.

 

[The Wormhole]

I never said it was "okay" that the old shows did it,

No? Then how else does one interpret this statement:

I thought it was very cool that DS9 had two uniform styles

If there's a misunderstanding, please clear it up.

On DIS and LD, it's different uniforms at random for different starships. There's no justification for different uniforms between the Cerritos and the Titan or the Discovery and the Enterprise.

But there is justification. The Titan is one of Starfleet's frontline ships, while the Cerritos is a second contact ship. Clearly the two divisions get their own uniforms. To use a real world precedent, it's like how surface ships and submarines have different uniforms.

Just as on Disco, the matter was already addressed in the novels as the Constitution fleet having their own uniforms, you just chose to dismiss it. Yes, the information came from a non-canon novel, but that novel had one of the writers from the show consulting on it, and the policy seems to have been adhered to in the show, so what's the problem?

 

[jackoverfull]

Sorry, but this is a nonsense explanation with absolutely zero canonical support and quite a lot to refute it. Other ships in the Discovery era were shown to have the same Discovery-style uniforms.

None of the other shown ships had assignments similar to the one of the enterprise, though.

And yes, technically it’s not canon, however it was the show runners’ stated intention.

Across TNG and DS9, all starship officers from other ships all wore the same uniforms. There's no distinction made between the types of missions you go on and the kind of uniform you have.

apart from the admirals, which seemed to change uniforms every few weeks in early TNG. and the extras/many guests, who either kept using the old jumpsuits or later used uniforms that opened from the front (actually a retooling of the older jumpsuits). Or Picard, who dug a leather jacket. Or sisko, who used a gilet and for one episode even had troubles placing his communicator on the new FC uniform correctly.

my point? Just that yes, there is a lot of variety now, but the uniforms have never been THAT uniform even in the TNG/DS9 era, the most uniform of them all. And of course the era that started the “different assignment, different uniform” idea.

 

[The Wormhole]

apart from the admirals, which seemed to change uniforms every few weeks in early TNG. and the extras/many guests, who either kept using the old jumpsuits or later used uniforms that opened from the front (actually a retooling of the older jumpsuits). Or Picard, who dug a leather jacket. Or sisko, who used a gilet and for one episode even had troubles placing his communicator on the new FC uniform correctly.

Actually, that wasn't a case of Sisko placing the communicator incorrectly, that was him having a special uniform which had a larger gray shoulders than the other uniforms. The communicator was still the same spot on his chest, just for some reason, the gray went further down on his uniform. So there's another uniform variant.

Not to mention, with the FC uniforms, Captains wore a vest with it as well. Another uniform variant.

 

[fireproof78]

This image is from a site that sells the monster black unis.
View attachment 23884

Still needs at least a short collared undershirt.

Those would have worked as TOS Movie Era dress uniforms. Put some ribbons and medals on them and they'd be their own beast.

The one thing that image illustrates is how much I would prefer that style utilizing the TOS or TMP style cuff link ranking. I think it would add a little more symmetry to the uniform and balance it out nicely.

 

[Crewman6]

None of the other shown ships had assignments similar to the one of the enterprise, though.

And yes, technically it’s not canon, however it was the show runners’ stated intention.

None of the other ships in Discovery were explorer vessels like "The Enterprise?" I find that hard to believe. If Disco had totally unique uniforms because IT was a special ship (experimental and all that), I could maybe buy it, but that wasn't the case.

If the Enterprise was a brand new ship that had just been launched and we were meant to assume its flashy new uniforms were the latest style, I could buy that, too. Also not the case.

apart from the admirals, which seemed to change uniforms every few weeks in early TNG. and the extras/many guests, who either kept using the old jumpsuits or later used uniforms that opened from the front (actually a retooling of the older jumpsuits). Or Picard, who dug a leather jacket. Or sisko, who used a gilet and for one episode even had troubles placing his communicator on the new FC uniform correctly.

Well, you can argue "real world" production considerations, which account for most of this, or we can discuss what the intent was meant from an in-universe perspective. Obviously TNG kept the old school jumpsuits in use for a while due to budget considerations before they didn't need them anymore. Obviously the evolving admiral uniforms were the producers and costume designers fine-tuning a look as they went along. Obviously Sisko having difficulty with his communicator were because the uniforms were rushed into production and they were still also fine tuning the fit. None of those examples are really relevant to what we're talking about. We no more need discuss those than we would need to invent a "weight gain" subroutine created by Dr. Soong to explain how Brent Spiner's real-world appearance obviously changed over time since the actor is not literally an android.

Picard choosing to wear a suede jacket is also not relevant since that was captains' prerogative (as was Kirk's swingin' green outfit in TOS.) Sisko wearing a vest was meant to just be a part of the FC uniform (Picard even sported the vest in First Contact, it's implied to be beneath the outer layer.)

my point? Just that yes, there is a lot of variety now, but the uniforms have never been THAT uniform even in the TNG/DS9 era, the most uniform of them all. And of course the era that started the “different assignment, different uniform” idea.

Different assignment, different uniform is acceptable, but I don't buy that different starships/different uniforms fall under that umbrella. I don't think Starfleet would say, "Oh, crappy Cerritos-style ships, you get these uniforms to denote your lesser status," even in LD, which is a light-hearted look at Trek not meant to be taken all that seriously.

I simply wish that there was a unified look. I get that LD didn't want to just use FC uniforms because they wanted to give the show its own identity (as was arguably the real-world reason for the DS9 change), but if that's the case, just put everyone in the LD uniform and declare unambiguously that "This is now the official uniform of the 2380s!" It's not like it costs you anymore to draw it that way.

 

[Crewman6]

Actually, that wasn't a case of Sisko placing the communicator incorrectly, that was him having a special uniform which had a larger gray shoulders than the other uniforms. The communicator was still the same spot on his chest, just for some reason, the gray went further down on his uniform. So there's another uniform variant.

not a true variant, just a production mistake. We can ignore those.

Not to mention, with the FC uniforms, Captains wore a vest with it as well. Another uniform variant.

Everyone had the vest, the just never disrobed enough for us to see it.

 

[fireproof78]

but if that's the case, just put everyone in the LD uniform and declare unambiguously that "This is now the official uniform of the 2380s!" It's not like it costs you anymore to draw it that way.

The Constitutions are a special class of ship and have always been treated thus.

If the Enterprise was a brand new ship that had just been launched and we were meant to assume its flashy new uniforms were the latest style, I could buy that, too. Also not the case.

As noted by others multiple uniforms have been used at the same time. The CO of the fleet Cerritos falls under decided these were the uniforms for this command. Command authorities can have that over uniform of the day based upon what the Quartermaster makes available.

 

[cooleddie74]

Even Michael Burnham tells Tilly that the Constitution-class starships like the Enterprise are a special type of vessel. When the Enterprise shows up for the first time Stamets is almost in awe of her.

 

[jackoverfull]

Actually, that wasn't a case of Sisko placing the communicator incorrectly, that was him having a special uniform which had a larger gray shoulders than the other uniforms. The communicator was still the same spot on his chest, just for some reason, the gray went further down on his uniform. So there's another uniform variant.

yep…and it surely looked odd, glad it didn’t stick.

None of the other ships in Discovery were explorer vessels like "The Enterprise?" I find that hard to believe.

we haven’t seen personnel from that many ships in the first two seasons of discovery, most of them being involved in the war or on assignments that didn’t pertain exploration. But if you can point to another deep space exploration vessel of that era we’ve seen the crew of feel free to do so.

In fact, the only vessel I remember doing any exploration was Shenzou, which was however an old ship and definitely not on a deep space mission.

If the Enterprise was a brand new ship that had just been launched and we were meant to assume its flashy new uniforms were the latest style, I could buy that, too. Also not the case.

also, the remark that the uniforms are new and enterprise got them early is expressly stated on screen in the season 2 opener.

Well, you can argue "real world" production considerations, which account for most of this, or we can discuss what the intent was meant from an in-universe perspective.

Uh? Can’t we do both?

just put everyone in the LD uniform and declare unambiguously that "This is now the official uniform of the 2380s!" It's not like it costs you anymore to draw it that way.

Seeing the new uniforms I originally thought they had made them because the FC ones didn’t look that well in animation (and I still think they don’t), up until the closing episode of s1 we’ve seen the FC ones only in flashbacks, which made a lot of sense. Now they are back, it seems, to the DS9 concept, which makes sense as well, of course.

not a true variant, just a production mistake. We can ignore those.

can we? They are LITERALLY canon.

if we ignore those we might as well end here the conversation saying that any difference in uniforms is just a different interpretation of the same thing and we can imagine them wearing all the same uniform, whichever the one we like the most.

 

[Commander Troi]

Even Michael Burnham tells Tilly that the Constitution-class starships like the Enterprise are a special type of vessel. When the Enterprise shows up for the first time Stamets is almost in awe of her.

Plus, Enterprise is PRETTY!

 

[cooleddie74]

I'm on record saying that the DSC producers changed too much of her for this timeframe but when this scene happened at the very end of Season 1 I smiled. A lot.

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[jackoverfull]

I'm on record saying that the DSC producers changed too much of her for this timeframe but when this scene happened at the very end of Season 1 I smiled. A lot.

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me too.

I’ve been looking at sisko’s uniform in rapture, there is a still here and it’s a good page to use for comparisons…I don’t think it’s different from the one used in later episodes, the grey part seems more or less the same length to me. I guess he tried to start a new trend and it didn’t stick!

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starfleet_uniform_(2370s)

 

[Commander Troi]

Me three! The music helps too. She'll always be my favorite.