Saucer separation. How does it work exactly?

[Christopher]

I get it Christoper. It vexes me too, much as it might if all of the families on the ship suddenly disappeared (which arguably they do unless they're needed for the plot).

The civilians largely did disappear. Again, the original idea was that the civilians weren't just Starfleet families or bartenders or barbers -- the crew was supposed to be a mix of Starfleet officers and civilian scientists. But that got forgotten after all the staff turnarounds. The only civilian scientist we ever saw on the ship was Keiko, and she ended up being treated more as just the uniformed guy's wife than a member of the crew in her own right.

Do you have an explanation for why the broadly-defined scope of the E-D's mission seems to have changed? I'm asking out of genuine curiosity, not trying to bait you or anything.

I think I did address that somewhere in Riker's internal monologue in Titan: Orion's Hounds. I don't quite remember how I explained the shift in priorities, though -- probably something about how new security threats like the Romulans and Borg kept cropping up so that Starfleet's attention was redirected. Riker was disappointed by it and was hoping Titan's mission would be a second chance.

 

[DonIago]

That sounds familiar, though I can't say whether I'm remembering it from OH or from another book or books.

I guess the same logic could be applied to why the civilian population was, to put it generously, pared down.

I know it's not one of yours, but found it touching how at the end of the Destiny trilogy Picard realizes that for the first time since "Q Who" he doesn't have a faint sense of terror in the back of his mind, wondering when and how the Borg will resurface. That they've plagued him on some level since he first became aware of them.

But yes, it was kind of sad the way Titan seemed to get stuck in the AQ for awhile after OH. I haven't read more recent Trek novels, but I hope they were able to get back to exploration. No spoilers please.

 

[publiusr]

Now one of the 32 Century ships looks like a flying arcology…that was what the Ent-D felt like in season one with that new human vibe. My guess is that the D wasn’t big enough, and that hostile actions ramping up led to a big rethink. Things calm down for a few centuries, and the arcology-ship model comes back.

Shuttle fighter jocks make way to Starship dreamers. Sometimes, the warrior must give way to the Explorer

 

[Damian]

I get it Christoper. It vexes me too, much as it might if all of the families on the ship suddenly disappeared (which arguably they do unless they're needed for the plot).

The civilians largely did disappear. Again, the original idea was that the civilians weren't just Starfleet families or bartenders or barbers -- the crew was supposed to be a mix of Starfleet officers and civilian scientists. But that got forgotten after all the staff turnarounds. The only civilian scientist we ever saw on the ship was Keiko, and she ended up being treated more as just the uniformed guy's wife than a member of the crew in her own right.

Well, you could say they are still there, we just don't see them in the show. There's nothing to say there aren't any civilian scientists aboard. Occasionally we here references to scientists on the ship (usually being annoyed because the sensors or some other function is being used for some other purpose). So it's possible there is a civilian population on board who are scientists that we just don't see. There are over 1000 people on the ship and we see just a fraction. I'd also assume there's quite a bit of turnover on board with the civilian population. As the Enterprise goes off on various missions, I would think the civilians would change depending on their specialties and priorities.

Ditto for families. I always assumed they were still there, just unseen unless needed for whatever reason.

So at least in that case it's a little easier to explain. Though I grant it would have been nice to throw in some extras in the corridors who were in civilian outfits, and the occasional family walking through.

As far as saucer separation, I do agree there are times it should have been done more. With today's CGI technology it's possible we may very well have seen it a few more times (though I wouldn't want to overdo it either). In the writer's room it just seemed to be forgotten. It probably would have been nice if they at least referenced it a bit more (even if they didn't separate, at least provide some explanation why it wasn't done--there are situations I can envision where you'd consider it and decide against it).

 

[Christopher]

Well, you could say they are still there, we just don't see them in the show. Occasionally we here references to scientists on the ship (usually being annoyed because the sensors or some other function is being used for some other purpose). So it's possible there is a civilian population on board who are scientists that we just don't see.

That's not how they portrayed it, though. We saw our share of scientists, but they were always Starfleet officers. I'm not talking about some hypothetical "objective reality" here, I'm talking about the choices different creators made in how to portray the crew, and how the later producers' assumptions contrasted with those of TNG's developers.

 

[Damian]

That's not how they portrayed it, though. We saw our share of scientists, but they were always Starfleet officers. I'm not talking about some hypothetical "objective reality" here, I'm talking about the choices different creators made in how to portray the crew, and how the later producers' assumptions contrasted with those of TNG's developers.

Yeah, there's no denying the change in showrunners affected the focus. I'm just saying unlike with saucer separation, which we could obviously see only happened twice after the first season, there's nothing to rule out civilian scientists being on the ship. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there in universe. On that point, at least, you could say just because you didn't see them much didn't mean they weren't there. With over 1000 people on board you could easily explain that away.

But yeah, there was a definite shift that started I think in season 2 and really took hold in season 3. Now, I would argue some of those changes made TNG a better show. There are some avenues from season 1 that would have been interesting to see fleshed out more. But there were also a fair share of questionable episodes in season 1. But you bring up some points that could have used more development, but the showrunners that took over had different priorities.

But then, that's pretty common on TV. Look at Discovery--in that case I would argue the changes made were much more significant, changing the entire focus of the show. With TNG there were some noticeable changes, but they just seemed more gradual when it came to the overall focus, and some things were more around the edges. Ditto for DS9. Voyager seemed to be the most consistent among the Berman spin offs, with changes only mainly due to character changes (Kes to Seven) and the fact that they left some aliens behind while they encountered new ones for obvious reasons. Among the Berman shows, Enterprise is probably the one that underwent the most significant changes.

 

[DonIago]

I mean, by the "just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not there" rationalization, we could argue that the ship saucer separated three times a week; just not during times we were privileged enough to witness...except that the circumstances we do witness beg the question of why the ship isn't separating the saucer at such times, which I'll grant is less applicable to the civilian scientist situation.

I guess I do wonder what the show would be like if saucer separations and the civilian population hadn't been sidelined (let's assume that the former were done in a way that didn't bog down episodes/kill the VFX budget). Would we remember it as (generally) fondly as we do now, or would the show have been cancelled after bleeding viewers because continuing down the path laid out by the first two seasons proved untenable?

 

[Damian]

I mean, by the "just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not there" rationalization, we could argue that the ship saucer separated three times a week; just not during times we were privileged enough to witness...except that the circumstances we do witness beg the question of why the ship isn't separating the saucer at such times, which I'll grant is less applicable to the civilian scientist situation.

I guess I do wonder what the show would be like if saucer separations and the civilian population hadn't been sidelined (let's assume that the former were done in a way that didn't bog down episodes/kill the VFX budget). Would we remember it as (generally) fondly as we do now, or would the show have been cancelled after bleeding viewers because continuing down the path laid out by the first two seasons proved untenable?

The saucer separation is a much more significant event though. Even though maybe they should have done it more based on some of the episodes, I still don't think it would be something done often. It would be due to a serious emergency or threat that I don't think we could easily explain away as just not seeing.

Civilian scientists being on the ship would be more minor than that in comparison, an every day thing that wouldn't need to be the focus of an episode. That's a bit easier to explain.

Overall I think the show needed some changes. While there were things left behind in season 1 that could have been developed more, season 1 was also very uneven. There were some good episodes, and some that were borderline awful. I think, overall, the new showrunners that came in made TNG a much stronger show. With changes like that some things are going to be left behind. Some of that is unfortunate, but some of that was probably a good thing.

At the end of the day I really enjoyed TNG overall as a show. While there are things I wish they developed further, I have a hard time thinking of things I would sacrifice to make room for some of those things. Of course, some of those things could probably have been incorporated into existing episodes in some fashion. But there are other things that would have changed the show more significantly. Christopher has noted in the past that he wondered how it might have been had Geordi been a security chief and Worf a chief engineer. And I agree that has some potential, using Geordi's visor for investigations for instance. But at the same time I liked the development we saw in Worf's character in particular so would I sacrifice some of that to see him in a different role? I have a hard time saying yes to that. Or some of the subtle changes in Data after season 1--I really liked the overall growth in his character throughout the show. Would I want to see that changed? I hesitate to say yes to that as well because he ended up being a strong character. Perhaps he would have been stronger going the route of season 1....but maybe not too. We'll never know I suppose.

 

[Christopher]

Look at Discovery--in that case I would argue the changes made were much more significant, changing the entire focus of the show.

Of course, but those shifts in story emphasis didn't create continuity questions like "What the hell happened to the civilians and families that the ship was literally designed to accommodate?" That's the root of my problem -- the whole design of the Enterprise-D and the fact that it had civilians on board in the first place was the result of it being intended as a long-term deep-space exploration vessel that would be away from the Federation for up to 15 years at a time and thus had to be a self-sufficient community in its own right rather than just a military vessel, and therefore needed a way to protect that civilian community and take them out of danger when the need arose. There are a lot of features about the ship itself, its design and crew composition and such, that just don't serve a purpose anymore if you take that premise away. It's not just that they made changes -- it's that the specific changes they made created logic holes.

I guess I do wonder what the show would be like if saucer separations and the civilian population hadn't been sidelined (let's assume that the former were done in a way that didn't bog down episodes/kill the VFX budget).

Budget wasn't the issue. Once they shot the separation sequence, they could've reused it as stock anytime. The problem was that the 6-foot miniature was too big, heavy, and awkward to work with. If they'd just given the 4-footer separation ability, or built separate saucer and stardrive models along with it (an added expense but only a one-time one amortized over the rest of the series), they could've shot more sequences of the separated ship about as easily as they shot new footage of the intact 4-footer.

Would we remember it as (generally) fondly as we do now, or would the show have been cancelled after bleeding viewers because continuing down the path laid out by the first two seasons proved untenable?

I don't think the one has anything to do with the other. The show got better because the character writing improved. That could certainly have still happened if the focus on the hybrid Starfleet/civilian makeup of the crew had been kept; indeed, it could've created even more opportunities for character drama and conflict because of the different points of view of the two groups, and the debates that could've been had over the ethics of bringing civilians along as the galaxy got more dangerous. We saw how good the writing was on DS9 with a mixed cast of Starfleet and civilians -- Michael Piller could've done the same years earlier on TNG if he'd wanted to.

I've often felt they should've played up the civilian element even more. Maybe have Deanna Troi be a civilian, the official liaison and spokesperson for the civilian crew, hence her participation in command decisions and her lack of a uniform. If one of the main cast had been a civilian, it would've given the writers more of an entry point to write about them.

Then there's my idea for a more radical reinvention, which I may have already mentioned. Instead of having a separable saucer and battle section, have a civilian research ship commanded by Picard (in the vein of his real-life inspiration Jacques Cousteau) escorted and protected by a Starfleet ship commanded by Captain Riker. There could've been some interesting conflicts between the two captains and crews and their differing viewpoints.

 

[Tomalak]

By the end of the first season, the ship’s original mission has been all-but abandoned. They called back at Earth in Conspiracy and ended the year at the Romulan Neutral Zone. They are never too far away from the Romulan, Klingon or Cardassian borders for the rest of the series, which is hardly the “unexplored mass of the galaxy” that we were promised in the pilot. Clearly this is because the priorities of the writing staff changed as the rapid churn in the staff continued, but may coincide with an in-universe shift of priorities.

It’s possible we don’t see many civilian scientists because there aren’t many. The only kids we see (e.g. in Rascals) are about a dozen who are definitely or probably the children of Starfleet officers. The Saratoga is also home to Jake and Jennifer Sisko - I don’t think we know if she was a scientist or just along for the ride as the XO’s spouse, but it’s a precedent that Starfleet families are allowed on ships in this period.

It’s therefore quite plausible that the mission changed such that civilians were few, and the original use case for saucer separation was no longer valid.

 

[Damian]

Of course, but those shifts in story emphasis didn't create continuity questions like "What the hell happened to the civilians and families that the ship was literally designed to accommodate?" That's the root of my problem -- the whole design of the Enterprise-D and the fact that it had civilians on board in the first place was the result of it being intended as a long-term deep-space exploration vessel that would be away from the Federation for up to 15 years at a time and thus had to be a self-sufficient community in its own right rather than just a military vessel, and therefore needed a way to protect that civilian community and take them out of danger when the need arose. There are a lot of features about the ship itself, its design and crew composition and such, that just don't serve a purpose anymore if you take that premise away. It's not just that they made changes -- it's that the specific changes they made created logic holes.

Yeah, I'm just saying there's nothing to say those civilians aren't in fact on board. But there's no denying that they weren't featured much on the show and the focus of the show changed. So I get what you are saying. In 'theory' you could say they are on the ship, as nothing precludes that, but that doesn't change the fact that they weren't in the show (at least much) Some of the logic holes you noted can be explained away. In fact, it might be interesting to see some novels for TNG that feature some of that (granted that's not the same as the show).

I guess my opinions on some that are a bit colored because I did enjoy TNG quite a bit overall. I thought TNG improved considerably after the first season so as an overall product I enjoyed the show. Not to say it was perfect, as you noted, there are things they could have developed more. But in any show or movie I'm more apt to overlook some of those things if I enjoyed it otherwise. TNG being such a great Star Trek show, IMO, makes it easier for me to not worry as much about what was missing.

But each person is different. I'm not as interested in transhumanism as you are, for instance. Not saying it doesn't interest me at all. If there is a good story I can definitely get into it. But it's not something I personally seek out in stories. But I really like astronomy, one of the things that attracted me to Star Trek in the first place since it takes place in space and actually uses real stars for some of their locations (and features various cosmic phenomena, some based at least in part on real science). So TNG's lack of focus on transhumanism doesn't bother me as much. I also like just plain interesting stories and character development, which is the one area TNG greatly improved on in later years.

 

[publiusr]

And you might have had a case of urban flight out “Q Who.”

You’re about to replicate dinner, and a 100 yottawatt Borg laser slices through a half dozen decks and just ruins your party as all little Billy’s pals get sucked into the void.

I don’t think Flo’ covers that one.

And he wonders where all the families went.

Somewhere safe and wholesome…………like Qo’noS

Scandinavian death metal bands own deck six now. And you thought that throbbing was the engines-ha!