What does God need with silver eyes?
WNMHGB Question
- Thread starter Vger23
- Start date
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I disagree with you.
Consider the alternative: If Dr. Dehner were the first one to get all the godlike powers, the story would be derided as sexist because people would interpret it as "Women can't handle power, and it takes a real man like Kirk to stop them."
Plus, Kirk slugging it out and killing Dr. Dehner would be seen as misogynistic violence, and it would be.
No one would ever tune in again to watch a show with men beating up women.
Kirk vs. Mitchell conflict keeps the entire sex/gender angle out of it.
The last claim is a bit too much, I think: as you say, it's acceptable exactly because it pays careful heed to what is palatable as regards sex/gender.
Trek seldom does anything particularly bold, especially as regards gender; each spinoff gets more timid about it, LDS perhaps excepted. TOS had some nuggets, though: in "By Any Other Name", say, they present the choice between killing a pretty damsel and a black guy, automatically angering major demographic groups whichever way it goes, and then choose to keep the guy and kill the gal at least somewhat against stereotype.
Timo Saloniemi
Trek seldom does anything particularly bold, especially as regards gender; each spinoff gets more timid about it, LDS perhaps excepted. TOS had some nuggets, though: in "By Any Other Name", say, they present the choice between killing a pretty damsel and a black guy, automatically angering major demographic groups whichever way it goes, and then choose to keep the guy and kill the gal at least somewhat against stereotype.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm not sure which claim you think is too much?
It's my observation that we as a society have gotten desensitized to violence toward women.
You see macho women warriors in movies beating up people, knifing klingons, burning aliens with flame throwers and generally getting into the thick of a fight.
In real life, if you see a man and a woman fighting, you're going to get a big pouring of emotional outrage at the man. He will receive Zero sympathy if he wins or loses.
As far as Emotional Responses go, humans are not much above apes.
Storywise, The cold blooded killing of the female yeoman in "By Any Other Name" was meant to define the Kelvins as horrendous enemies, capable of anything.
The last line - about male vs. male making the issue sex-independent. When the whole point is that no other combination besides male vs. male would be acceptable, the statement appears untrue.
Not sure folks wouldn't cheer in a mixed-gender fight today and around here, or that they'd cheer specifically/automatically for one or the other. If it's a fight between peers (physically, wealth-wise, armament-wise, whatever), plenty of people today appear to believe in equality and are ready to pick their champion* without gender perceptions. If it's unfair (see above), gender is unlikely to add or detract much, unless the imbalance comes directly from our sexual dimorphism. But of course statistically the latter is pretty likely, and plenty of "fights" would then better be characterized as "beatings", and the above would not apply as such.
Timo Saloniemi
* That is, unless they just walk away (the default expectation) or intervene (its opposite)...
The point of the story is sex/gender independent:
Male or Female will be absolutely corrupted by absolute power.
You could make it a Female Vs Female struggle and it would be similarly sex-independent.
But I believe a Male Vs. Female struggle would cloud the main issue so much as to obscure it.
Male or Female will be absolutely corrupted by absolute power.
You could make it a Female Vs Female struggle and it would be similarly sex-independent.
But I believe a Male Vs. Female struggle would cloud the main issue so much as to obscure it.
Well, at least in the nineties they created Seven who's a beautiful woman but can beat up any man she meets, for example, she only loses against "the rock" because of her hesitation to cause him harm, otherwise, he'd be toast.
...and a story did not need 120 minutes to perfectly explore Mitchell's change. It was one of the best character studies / fall from grace episodes.
There's no chauvinism in Mitchell having the higher ESPer rating and gaining powers first. The story was not about Dehner turning, but the radical change of a normal man into a being with powers beyond imagination but still guided by human failings of ego and self-obsession--the desire to see oneself as a (false) God, and most importantly, how Kirk would carry the burden of first arguing against taking any drastic action against his best friend, to reaching the agonizing conclusion that the friend had to die.
There's no emotional exploration / growth / sacrifice for Kirk if the megalomaniacal false God is a random crew member.
I knew I should have checked the episode instead of relying on my memory.
The Q Continuum books by Greg Cox say Q also made the great barrier towards the center of the galaxy, and the Shatnerverse novels say the the galactic barrier that envelopes the Milky Way is protecting us from an intergalactic dark matter being, as well as O from the aforementioned Q Continuum novels. Those Q love their defensive energy barriers, I guess.
Don't the prophets give you blue? I'll have to go check the Kira/Jake care bear stare...
Yes, you're right, that's because the Pah Wraiths are EVIL!!! That's the thing when you're a god you can't hide the fact that you're evil. If only our politicians had that characteristic;
Can you imagine?
"I am telling you, citizens, I am NOT EVIL, my eyes are red because I drink too much cheap alcohol and never get any sleep!"
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Society has changed. Nowadays characters from Buffy Summers to Supergirl as well as any number of female characters from fantasy and sci fi shows regularly beat up and get beat up by male characters. It's okay because we recognize that the female characters have great power themselves unlike in real life as far as women generally not being as strong or able to compete physically with men.
According to police reports, women being physically abused by mean is unfortunately still a frequent occurrence. I am not even sure it has significantly diminished compared to ten or twenty years ago.
I watch very little TV or movies that wouldn't be classified as "Ancient."
Nevertheless, I know human instincts pretty well, as to what's acceptable and what's not on an instinctive level.
I very much doubt that, even in the superhero movies where the women are virtually indestructible
that they show men beating up women and it's accepted as casually as a man getting beaten up.
Almost universally, when a woman gets beaten up by a man, it's the way the writers tap into the audience's instincts to make them hate a villain and pretty much any retribution however horrible against the villain is justifiable.
As a matter of fact, I'd almost bet on it, if I didn't know that our current culture is trying hard to push the extreme outer edges of what's acceptable and what's not.
The question is: When will they reach that level of depravity? Or, have they already?
Nevertheless, I know human instincts pretty well, as to what's acceptable and what's not on an instinctive level.
I very much doubt that, even in the superhero movies where the women are virtually indestructible
that they show men beating up women and it's accepted as casually as a man getting beaten up.
Almost universally, when a woman gets beaten up by a man, it's the way the writers tap into the audience's instincts to make them hate a villain and pretty much any retribution however horrible against the villain is justifiable.
As a matter of fact, I'd almost bet on it, if I didn't know that our current culture is trying hard to push the extreme outer edges of what's acceptable and what's not.
The question is: When will they reach that level of depravity? Or, have they already?
And, is there a downside to it?
Showing women as violent pugilists might have one: men might start thinking more often that it's safer to do unto them first before they do unto the men. Apart from that, the "depravity" would only seem to enforce positive and empowering ideas, while hardly making a dent in the armor of the Hollywood practice of equating violent with heroic.
Timo Saloniemi
Showing women as violent pugilists might have one: men might start thinking more often that it's safer to do unto them first before they do unto the men. Apart from that, the "depravity" would only seem to enforce positive and empowering ideas, while hardly making a dent in the armor of the Hollywood practice of equating violent with heroic.
Timo Saloniemi
Either you misunderstood what I wrote completely, or
You see no downside to watching women get beaten up by men for entertainment?
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No, but there was a fair amount of it in Mitchell himself, even before the accident.
This is all assuming Dehner would have become as megalomaniacal as Mitchell did. I don't see any evidence that she would have. She had the presence of mind to actually turn on Mitchell, didn't she? And she had the decency to regret what she'd become. Mitchell didn't.
And again, who's to say that the kind of sexist jerk Mitchell was BEFORE the power, contributed to the insane maniac he became AFTER it. I find it likely that it did.
It's worth noting that Mitchell wasn't new to trying manipulate a situation to his advantage. Remember that he aimed a "little blonde lab assistant" at Lt. Kirk while in Lt. Kirk's class at the academy. It was already in his psyche to use less than ethically means to achieve an end.
I've kind of assumed based on the evidence that Dehner was on the same curve Mitchell was, but started from an earlier place and with a slower rate of acceleration. TL;DR I think she would have gotten there in time.
I guess it depends on whether you believe power corrupts, or whether you believe that that's overly-simplistic, or whether you believe Dehner might have been the exception that would have proven the rule.
I guess it depends on whether you believe power corrupts, or whether you believe that that's overly-simplistic, or whether you believe Dehner might have been the exception that would have proven the rule.
