Even TOS has comedy episodes: "I, Mudd", "The Trouble With Tribbles","The Naked Time", "Shore Leave","A Piece Of The Action"... and a few more...
My DS9 Rewatch Odyssey
- Thread starter ananta
- Start date
Even TOS has comedy episodes: "I, Mudd", "The Trouble With Tribbles","The Naked Time", "Shore Leave","A Piece Of The Action"... and a few more...
Everyone's opinion will vary but I think so. Especially in TOS which was very much an episodic series designed to fit a variety of storytelling options. Comedy is just one way to tell a story and science fiction lends itself very well to comedy.
See, I love Trouble with Tribbles and I think DS9 had fun with it as well, including their own comedy to build on the previous episode. It's fun.
Yes, I agree. Ds9 did a great job of it. I like to watch these two episodes back to back which I do about twice a year on average.
I think it works best from the comedy, and it makes sense from a certain perspective. Keiko was focused on the well-being of the baby and, subsequently, the comfort of the surrogate. She might well have a blind spot. Moreover, it lets the writers get away with more if Keiko sees Miles having a strained relationship with Kira rather than an attraction.
She'd be wrong to be worried about Miles. I mean the man feels guilty just watching (fully clothed) holographic women!!!
My interpretation is that Keiko was aware of the attraction but she knows her husband and has total confidence that he would pull back before anything scandalous happened. She sees more danger to her baby in Kira being stressed about pregnancy or unhappy about going through it than in O'Brien straying.
Great review.
It is a fun episode, though the Kira/O'Brien story is definitely the weak one. It does feel rather forced.
There were so many funny moments in this one. One of my favorites is the end when Bashir just says with the look of total horror on his face, "Never mind. I don't want to know. I'll just stop asking that question altogether. People can just come in and be treated."
It isn't one of the best episodes, but it definitely makes you smile and laugh... like Worf at the very end. And sets up Worf and Dax.
It is a shame we never see Grilka again, though.
I think a 7 is a fair rating.
It is a fun episode, though the Kira/O'Brien story is definitely the weak one. It does feel rather forced.
There were so many funny moments in this one. One of my favorites is the end when Bashir just says with the look of total horror on his face, "Never mind. I don't want to know. I'll just stop asking that question altogether. People can just come in and be treated."
It isn't one of the best episodes, but it definitely makes you smile and laugh... like Worf at the very end. And sets up Worf and Dax.
It is a shame we never see Grilka again, though.
I think a 7 is a fair rating.
In "Looking for Par'mach" what was the drink Quark served to Grilka in the episode beginning?
Maparian ale, with a hint of pazafer.
Who asks for an Acturian fizz?
That's on TNG and Lwaxana Troi offers to make it for Daimon Tog.
“NOR THE BATTLE TO THE STRONG”
Some days it’s best to stay in bed...
Yikes, I’m watching these episodes faster than I can review them right now.
Frankly, I find “Nor the Battle to the Strong” (is that a poetic or pretentious episode title? I have no idea) a hard one to review. It’s definitely a strong episode with a lot of meat to it, but it’s also an episode that gets me a little annoyed; and it’s not one I particularly enjoy watching or writing about. In some respects, it’s a proto version of season seven’s “The Siege of AR-558”, in which the writers abandon all pretence and just deliver a straight up war movie in Trek clothing (complete with all the standard stereotypes, too, alas). Both make for unpleasant viewing and that’s largely the point, I guess: war is hell. That ought to be self-evident, of course, but I will say that in science-fiction—including Star Trek—we rarely see the ugly, painful side of war. We see exciting space battles in which we’re expected to cheer as we see Romulan warbirds or Jem’Hadar fighters explode into fireballs. We see our heroes battling the enemy with phasers or disrupters, or even Jem’Hadar knives, but we rarely get to see what happens afterward—the toll that battle takes, the life-threatening wounds, the pain and screaming, the death and the lives broken and destroyed. In keeping with “The Ship”, we here see that it’s not all fantastical space battles and decisive victories for the good guys. Nope, it’s messy, painful, ugly stuff.
Kudos to “Nor the Battle...” for having the guts to show that. While inevitably reminiscent of M*A*S*H, the episode also seems to takes its cues from ER, a show that was particularly big at the time, and it works in making the hospital scenes feel realistic, frenetic, and full of tension and grimness. The behaviour of the doctors, who are wry, sarcastic and tend to joke in extremely bad taste, is, I’m told, very reflective of people on the front lines of the medical profession; kind of a coping mechanism that helps them deal with relentless trauma. It doesn’t feel like very Star Trekky behaviour, mind you, which is an issue throughout the episode.
Basically, it’s a coming of age story for Jake and it’s a powerful one, too. We’re used to seeing Star Trek characters being true heroes—although they are almost always Starfleet officers or, in DS9’s case, Bajoran militia. Accordingly, they’re TRAINED to deal with battle situations. Jake isn’t. In the heat of battle, he bolts, abandoning Bashir and spending the rest of the episode ashamed and appalled by his actions. The episode makes an important point, however—courage isn’t something we are born with. We have to learn it; and build it like a muscle. We are biologically wired to protect ourselves and if we can’t fight, we reflexively flee from danger. I find it impossible to judge Jake because he’s not a Starfleet officer, has no military training, and he basically reacted the same way most of us probably would. This is certainly a different take on heroism than we’ve ever seen on Star Trek before, but it’s a realistic and uncomfortably honest one.
Kim Friedman is back on directorial duty again and does a sterling job, building a great sense of tension and danger. Acting-wise, the frequently under-utilised Cirroc Lofton carries the episode admirably in what is probably his strongest turn in the entire series (he actually didn’t appear all that much in “The Visitor” even though that’s by far the greatest Jake episode). Avery Brooks is superb at conveying Sisko’s terror over Jake’s safety, and Alexander Siddig also turns in a solid support performance. The other guests are variable. Karen Austin is good as Kalandra, the medic who keeps herself busy to avoid fretting over her husband on the front lines, but some of the other guests I wasn’t sold on. Andrew Kavovit seemed miscast as Kirby, for the simple reason that—well, he looks about twelve years old. I actually expected some kind of Dougie Howser twist in the backstory, but it never came. It seemed a strange casting choice for an experienced, rather jaded doctor.
There’s one performance that’s so bad it drags the episode down considerably, and that’s Danny Goldring who plays the wounded Burke. I hate that whole scene. It’s at this point I began cursing the writing staff’s predilection for turning old movies into DS9 episodes, because this scene is like a parody of just about any in-the-trenches war movie you can think of. Granted, the guy is wounded and dying, but there’s just no way in hell I can ever accept that Burke was a Starfleet officer. He’s just a stereotype of a grisly battle sergeant and the disgust he treats Jake with is utterly out of line. No, he may not have conducted himself with valour, but he’s just a kid, not a soldier, and has never been in a battle situation in his life. The tonal shift in this scene is so incredibly jarring it’s almost like I’ve accidentally switched channels and am onto a particularly cliched WW2 movie.
And that underlines a real problem I have with the episode as a whole. The combat, the behaviour of the officers and medics, the technology and tactics employed—it all feels straight out of an old war movie. This doesn’t translate to Star Trek very well. I get that it’s meant to be a front line situation, but how the heck can we believe that warfare will still be conducted in the 24th century the same way it was on Earth in the early to mid 20th century? Where’s the technological advancement—why are they still using ground troops when even in our time they would probably be using drones? I just had a hard time buying that aspect of it. There comes a point where the writers need to step back from movie homage mode and make things a truer reflection of Star Trek, technologically and in terms of how the characters act and behave in the 24th century.
I originally felt this one deserved a 9, but I’ve deducted a whole point for Burke’s horribly over the top acting, and because the aforementioned aspects of the episode bug me so much. On the whole, however, it is a strong character piece and it deals with some important and difficult themes, casting bravery in a vastly different light than we’ve perhaps ever seen on Trek before. Certainly a powerful episode: challenging, ugly, insightful, and frustrating. Rating: 8
Some days it’s best to stay in bed...
Yikes, I’m watching these episodes faster than I can review them right now.
Frankly, I find “Nor the Battle to the Strong” (is that a poetic or pretentious episode title? I have no idea) a hard one to review. It’s definitely a strong episode with a lot of meat to it, but it’s also an episode that gets me a little annoyed; and it’s not one I particularly enjoy watching or writing about. In some respects, it’s a proto version of season seven’s “The Siege of AR-558”, in which the writers abandon all pretence and just deliver a straight up war movie in Trek clothing (complete with all the standard stereotypes, too, alas). Both make for unpleasant viewing and that’s largely the point, I guess: war is hell. That ought to be self-evident, of course, but I will say that in science-fiction—including Star Trek—we rarely see the ugly, painful side of war. We see exciting space battles in which we’re expected to cheer as we see Romulan warbirds or Jem’Hadar fighters explode into fireballs. We see our heroes battling the enemy with phasers or disrupters, or even Jem’Hadar knives, but we rarely get to see what happens afterward—the toll that battle takes, the life-threatening wounds, the pain and screaming, the death and the lives broken and destroyed. In keeping with “The Ship”, we here see that it’s not all fantastical space battles and decisive victories for the good guys. Nope, it’s messy, painful, ugly stuff.
Kudos to “Nor the Battle...” for having the guts to show that. While inevitably reminiscent of M*A*S*H, the episode also seems to takes its cues from ER, a show that was particularly big at the time, and it works in making the hospital scenes feel realistic, frenetic, and full of tension and grimness. The behaviour of the doctors, who are wry, sarcastic and tend to joke in extremely bad taste, is, I’m told, very reflective of people on the front lines of the medical profession; kind of a coping mechanism that helps them deal with relentless trauma. It doesn’t feel like very Star Trekky behaviour, mind you, which is an issue throughout the episode.
Basically, it’s a coming of age story for Jake and it’s a powerful one, too. We’re used to seeing Star Trek characters being true heroes—although they are almost always Starfleet officers or, in DS9’s case, Bajoran militia. Accordingly, they’re TRAINED to deal with battle situations. Jake isn’t. In the heat of battle, he bolts, abandoning Bashir and spending the rest of the episode ashamed and appalled by his actions. The episode makes an important point, however—courage isn’t something we are born with. We have to learn it; and build it like a muscle. We are biologically wired to protect ourselves and if we can’t fight, we reflexively flee from danger. I find it impossible to judge Jake because he’s not a Starfleet officer, has no military training, and he basically reacted the same way most of us probably would. This is certainly a different take on heroism than we’ve ever seen on Star Trek before, but it’s a realistic and uncomfortably honest one.
Kim Friedman is back on directorial duty again and does a sterling job, building a great sense of tension and danger. Acting-wise, the frequently under-utilised Cirroc Lofton carries the episode admirably in what is probably his strongest turn in the entire series (he actually didn’t appear all that much in “The Visitor” even though that’s by far the greatest Jake episode). Avery Brooks is superb at conveying Sisko’s terror over Jake’s safety, and Alexander Siddig also turns in a solid support performance. The other guests are variable. Karen Austin is good as Kalandra, the medic who keeps herself busy to avoid fretting over her husband on the front lines, but some of the other guests I wasn’t sold on. Andrew Kavovit seemed miscast as Kirby, for the simple reason that—well, he looks about twelve years old. I actually expected some kind of Dougie Howser twist in the backstory, but it never came. It seemed a strange casting choice for an experienced, rather jaded doctor.
There’s one performance that’s so bad it drags the episode down considerably, and that’s Danny Goldring who plays the wounded Burke. I hate that whole scene. It’s at this point I began cursing the writing staff’s predilection for turning old movies into DS9 episodes, because this scene is like a parody of just about any in-the-trenches war movie you can think of. Granted, the guy is wounded and dying, but there’s just no way in hell I can ever accept that Burke was a Starfleet officer. He’s just a stereotype of a grisly battle sergeant and the disgust he treats Jake with is utterly out of line. No, he may not have conducted himself with valour, but he’s just a kid, not a soldier, and has never been in a battle situation in his life. The tonal shift in this scene is so incredibly jarring it’s almost like I’ve accidentally switched channels and am onto a particularly cliched WW2 movie.
And that underlines a real problem I have with the episode as a whole. The combat, the behaviour of the officers and medics, the technology and tactics employed—it all feels straight out of an old war movie. This doesn’t translate to Star Trek very well. I get that it’s meant to be a front line situation, but how the heck can we believe that warfare will still be conducted in the 24th century the same way it was on Earth in the early to mid 20th century? Where’s the technological advancement—why are they still using ground troops when even in our time they would probably be using drones? I just had a hard time buying that aspect of it. There comes a point where the writers need to step back from movie homage mode and make things a truer reflection of Star Trek, technologically and in terms of how the characters act and behave in the 24th century.
I originally felt this one deserved a 9, but I’ve deducted a whole point for Burke’s horribly over the top acting, and because the aforementioned aspects of the episode bug me so much. On the whole, however, it is a strong character piece and it deals with some important and difficult themes, casting bravery in a vastly different light than we’ve perhaps ever seen on Trek before. Certainly a powerful episode: challenging, ugly, insightful, and frustrating. Rating: 8
@ananta: Great review! I am not a big fan of war movies so my appreciation of that one is so so. The title is a quote from the bible which means that battles don't just happen to strong people but to all kinds. This is a truism but without truisms, there wouldn't be much left of the bible, which is why some people use it like a magic eight ball, when they have a problem to solve, they open it on a page at random and whatever they found there is supposed to provide them with a solution.
Anyway, I digress, the scenario contains just about every clché you find in war movies, and personally, I didn't think Jake (the actor) was all that great. He was ok but no more.
One funny detail is that Burke wanted to die facing upward, which is the exact opposite of what the soldiers in Voyager's Nemesis wanted. They hated their enemies precisely for leaving them dead facing the sun.
You can't make everyone happy.
Anyway, I digress, the scenario contains just about every clché you find in war movies, and personally, I didn't think Jake (the actor) was all that great. He was ok but no more.
One funny detail is that Burke wanted to die facing upward, which is the exact opposite of what the soldiers in Voyager's Nemesis wanted. They hated their enemies precisely for leaving them dead facing the sun.
You can't make everyone happy.
The front line war episodes are always a mixed bag for me in Trek. On the one hand, I agree that technology would change up warfare substantially, especially with more remotes and drones, and automated systems. On the other hand, from TOS forward we have seen very contemporary style strategies, including use of mortars. We also know that Starfleet is encountering combatants who are forcing Starfleet in to tactics they are not used to. Kira illustrates this well with how the Starfleet phaser rifle isn't reliable in the field. So, while I don't appreciate Burke's attitude I also think that it is emblematic of why the Dominion War is so devastating to Starfleet-it is pulling them completely out of their comfort zone and that creates fear, anxiety, panic and anger and rage.
Great review. I pretty much agree with your rating.
I do, however, disagree with your assessment of Burke. It's possible that because he is dying, he is more hard assed about things. And even if he is like that normally, people like him are necessary for ground battles. To quote The Doctor on VOYAGER, "Apparently it takes certain personality type to be attracted to the life of an outlaw." That's very true about soldiers and many professions, too. You have to be rather rough to survive a ground war. To quote Rambo in the game MORTAL KOMBAT 11, "To survive war, you gotta become war."
Also, I think drones weren't used because the Hoppers were being shot down by Klingons. Probably drones and other devices had the same fate, or a dampening field stopped them from working. Who knows?
Starfleet is used to using technology to solve anything, which is their strength and their weakness. When you have to go hand to hand, it's brutal and grisly... which is exactly where Klingons are at home in. The Jem'Hadar are the same, though they seem able to switch to either even more quickly.
Definitely agree this is a proto version of "THE SIEGE OF AR-558".
If I remember correctly, this was written as a sort birthday gift to Cirroc, who just turned 18 at the time of production.
I do, however, disagree with your assessment of Burke. It's possible that because he is dying, he is more hard assed about things. And even if he is like that normally, people like him are necessary for ground battles. To quote The Doctor on VOYAGER, "Apparently it takes certain personality type to be attracted to the life of an outlaw." That's very true about soldiers and many professions, too. You have to be rather rough to survive a ground war. To quote Rambo in the game MORTAL KOMBAT 11, "To survive war, you gotta become war."
Also, I think drones weren't used because the Hoppers were being shot down by Klingons. Probably drones and other devices had the same fate, or a dampening field stopped them from working. Who knows?
Starfleet is used to using technology to solve anything, which is their strength and their weakness. When you have to go hand to hand, it's brutal and grisly... which is exactly where Klingons are at home in. The Jem'Hadar are the same, though they seem able to switch to either even more quickly.
Definitely agree this is a proto version of "THE SIEGE OF AR-558".
If I remember correctly, this was written as a sort birthday gift to Cirroc, who just turned 18 at the time of production.
Another fine review....very intense episode. I was surprised it was directed by Kim Friedman, she did a great job of putting the viewer right in the scene. The subplot with Odo trying to get used to being a solid, complaining how fragile human bodies are, resonated with the main theme. Thought they could have found a better title than the phrase from Ecclesiastes...something on losing innocence or hubris.
Here's the full phrase from Ecclesiastes 9:11 and it makes a bit more sense: "I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. (King James Version)
Might not have been the intent, but it is an interesting idea to me.
Might not have been the intent, but it is an interesting idea to me.
Air power alone doesn't win wars. The Blitz didn't force the UK to surrender. The even more severe pounding the British and Americans gave Germany didn't force them to surrender either - the war wasn't over until the USSR, British, and American troops met on the ground. Soft targets could be destroyed from the air, such as railroad junctions and oil refineries, but bombing wasn't very effective against dug-in troops, factories, etc. You end up killing a bunch of civilians and blowing up houses, not your real target. The U.S. learned same lesson again when the U.S. heavily bombed Vietnam and the use of drones in Afghanistan. I'm not at all surprised that there's a role for ground troops even in the 24th century.
Last edited:
Drones don't have to fly all the way down. They could be beamed as close as possible to where they're needed. That would limit the possibilities of them being shot down.
Assuming nobody has set up shields around the targets they care about.
