It should be noted that during the time of TOS, Gene Roddenberry didn't think the ship would have any enlisted crew, such as NASA in that astronauts were commissioned officers.
Officer to enlisted ratio?
- Thread starter Cobalt Frost
- Start date
As I understand it (being married to a Navy Yeoman), a Boatswain's Mate is kind of a Jack-of-all-trade general sailor.
In my world, most enlisted (with some notable exceptions) come in as a BM, and later change rating to a specialty.
Rate == Rank / Pay-grade
Rating == Job-title / MOS
In my world, most enlisted (with some notable exceptions) come in as a BM, and later change rating to a specialty.
Rate == Rank / Pay-grade
Rating == Job-title / MOS
I wouldn't characterize it as such. The BM's primary responsibilities are the external appearance of the ship, the maintenance and operation of the ship's boats, upkeep of the cordage (the lines, ropes and stays), and the maintenance and operation of the anchor. They run the paint locker and provide the manpower pool for the bridge and lookout watches. They operate the boat winches and are always involved in UNREP operations. BMs are also the ones that are most versed in the traditions of the service and usually responsible for carrying out any pomp and circumstance.
I doubt if 1 in 100 have ever been inside an engineering space, though.
Gotcha. As I said, it's minor quibble.
@BK613 ... all true, for today's Navy. In the Trek era, however, I don't think we see much in the way of ropes and lines, or paint lockers. Of course, tradition would dictate the rating of Boatswain's Mate should not be eliminated but rather will evolve for the times and technology. (Yes, I do know the USCG merged BMs into QMs.)
I've always thought that Starfleet is probably more like the USCG and RN (about 20-25 ratings) as far it's enlisted cadre goes assuming it has one than the USN (50+).
I was about to say this, but then we do see crewmen in jumpsuits without any real insignia or rank markings. But it doesn't really bode well career wise - again, everyone laughs at the near almost-always Ensign Kim, and Picard in his more mediocre life was what, a old LTJG?
I think in Starfleet there's definitely a lot of warrant and CPOs and POs than let in on, and a lot of mustanging, too.
And that's what I responded to, your understanding of today's Navy.
I don't either but I do see the evolution stemming from where they are now. IMO, Deck to Engineering is about as big a leap as House Painter to Diesel Mechanic. YMMV.
If anything it's almost the complete opposite, as it's one of only two or three ratings (BM, QM and MA/ME) that has supervisory responsibilities as an inherent part of their role. They are a "jack of all trades" mostly in the sense that commissioned officers, they have a broad skillset because they are often in charge of anything that needs doing on board that doesn't have a commissioned officer or senior rating within that community (for instance, it's not unusual for a BMC or higher to stand-in for the MA or GM Chief, particularly on small boats), they were also until recently one of the main source ratings for both SWCCs and SOs within the SpecOps.
@Shamrock Holmes FWIW, senior enlisted among the engineering rates have been known to stand Engineering Officer of the Watch (and other such 'officer' engineering watches) so it is just not BMs that have 'officer' responsibilities beyond their paygrade. I've also seen a senior enlisted stand in for the Main Propulsion Assistant (which is typically filled by a commissioned or warrant officer.)
Agreed.
But your examples above are still within their rating or at least related one within the same community, whereas BMs may be assigned to lead multi-displinary teams (such as VBSS et al), so if anything they are a de facto senior rating not de facto junior or unskilled personnel (though they will often surprise and train unskilled/unrated personnel, particularly at the beginning of an E1's first tour) as @Sgt_G suggests.
Magic science automation.
Half the people on a boat in the real world are there to clean and repaint it so it doesn't rust and fall apart.
On Voyager we met 5 enlisted crew and 70 officers, out of a possible 140ish adult crew.
In the real world, enlisted crew are there for the money. It's a massive sacrifice in freedom that that are suitably compensated for, until some idiot gets them killed.
No money in Federation, but plenty of salt vampires.
The only reason to enlist is education.
On the job training which means when you get out, you're at the top of the list to do anything else in the Federation that's fun or rewarding.
Half the people on a boat in the real world are there to clean and repaint it so it doesn't rust and fall apart.
On Voyager we met 5 enlisted crew and 70 officers, out of a possible 140ish adult crew.
In the real world, enlisted crew are there for the money. It's a massive sacrifice in freedom that that are suitably compensated for, until some idiot gets them killed.
No money in Federation, but plenty of salt vampires.
The only reason to enlist is education.
On the job training which means when you get out, you're at the top of the list to do anything else in the Federation that's fun or rewarding.
@Shamrock Holmes So are your examples. All within the seaman ratings community, just as mine were firemen rating examples. (And ask any hole snipe whether that Electrician's Mate Senior Chief standing EOOW is part of their community, LOL.) And the Navy doesn't make that distinction you are making, between ratings that are senior or junior. Hell, on a ship with seven supply department divisions (been there), you are as likely to see an SK in charge as a BM.
@Sgt_G was correct about one thing, in a roundabout way. Deck department was the default destination for recruits straight out of boot camp (ones that didn't go to a school instead or otherwise have a rating.) So the newbies to the fleet were typically under the Bosun's care at first.
@Sgt_G was correct about one thing, in a roundabout way. Deck department was the default destination for recruits straight out of boot camp (ones that didn't go to a school instead or otherwise have a rating.) So the newbies to the fleet were typically under the Bosun's care at first.
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Or BMSA for that matter!
Exactly. Quoting above "Deck department was the default destination for recruits straight out of boot camp (ones that didn't go to a school instead or otherwise have a rating.) So the newbies to the fleet were typically under the Bosun's care at first." I'm not even sure the US Navy still has "strikers" in 2021, but I'm pretty sure that Star Fleet won't have any. Starships are too technical to send boots straight out to the fleet. In my view, everyone will go to an A-school. If they don't come in as a specialist (e.g., electrician, plumber, machinist mate, etc), they come in as a Boatswain. As they move up the ranks, they can cross-train into a specialty, or they can from a Jack-of-all-trades to a Master-of-all-trades. Notice that the head of the Damage Control / maintenance section is a BMC.
Also, to address one of the concerns above, I put a Boatswain in the engine room because I figure there's some equipment beside the Warp & Impulse Engines / Auxiliary Power Reactor for them to run / monitor, such as the AC electrical power generators.
Also, to address one of the concerns above, I put a Boatswain in the engine room because I figure there's some equipment beside the Warp & Impulse Engines / Auxiliary Power Reactor for them to run / monitor, such as the AC electrical power generators.
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Here is number for the Deck department for the same ship as the E-Division I detailed upthread (totals from the 84-85 cruisebook).
Four Divisions, 1st, 2nd, 3rd (also known as STREAM), and Gunnery.
Dept Head is 1st Lieutenant, rank LT.
Edit to add: Although there still plans somehow modernize the rating system, as now, as far as I can tell, the Navy still has 'strikers.'
Four Divisions, 1st, 2nd, 3rd (also known as STREAM), and Gunnery.
Dept Head is 1st Lieutenant, rank LT.
LTjg 1
CWO2(The Bosun) 1
BMCM 1
BMC 1
BM1 4
BM2 3
BM3 2
BMSN 4
SN 16
SA 20
CWO2(The Bosun) 1
BMCM 1
BMC 1
BM1 4
BM2 3
BM3 2
BMSN 4
SN 16
SA 20
LT 1
BMCS 1
BM1 1
BM3 4
SN 15
SA 21
BMCS 1
BM1 1
BM3 4
SN 15
SA 21
CWO2 1
EM1 1
MM1 2
MM2 1
EMFN 2
MMFN 5
FN 1
FA 1
EM1 1
MM1 2
MM2 1
EMFN 2
MMFN 5
FN 1
FA 1
LTjg 1
GMGC 1
GM1 2
GM3 3
GMSN 3
GMGC 1
GM1 2
GM3 3
GMSN 3
Edit to add: Although there still plans somehow modernize the rating system, as now, as far as I can tell, the Navy still has 'strikers.'
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Half right at best.
He's conflagating most undesignated seamen (E1) who are assigned to the Deck Department with the NCOs that run the department.
At least in the Coast Guard, they work as small boat crew or even the coxswain (commander), and I imagine that the USN is similar.
Now, I agree with the first part of your statement.
The problem is that "strikers" (which is exactly what your Boatswain's Mates are, Boatswains ["Bosun"] are the "Head of Department" and would never be less than a BM1) are mostly undesignated personnel, even the few ratings that used to source by cross-rating (MA/ME, SO*) rather than training personnel directly at A-School, no longer do and there are excellent reasons (which you concede) why, in fact other non-US services have stopped deploying undesignated seamen to the fleet a decade or more ago, for instance AFAIK the Royal Navy don't even have a rank below rated E2 any more. Like the "Monster Maroons" era Starfleet, their minimum rank is Able Seaman, although they do preserve the "first tour" distinction in paygrade.
I'm not sure, but I would imagine that electrical power would be the domain of Electrician's Mates and/or Electronics Technicians.
Taking into consideration your points about the obsolescence of many of the BMs traditional roles, I would imagine that most would assigned to the Hanger Deck (as ABE, ABF and ABHs) and as pilots, either of auxiliary craft only or as Flight Control Officers on the Bridge.
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