What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
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That night on Deck Ten, Tasha Yar *was* the blue fairy.
Well, I agree, that could explain why he would have been nicknamed "often wrong". However, it would be nice if that nickname was confirmed by someone else than Lore.
Too bad McCoy doesn't have a pill to grow a positronic brain like he has one to grow a kidney.
Pretend I know nothing about Star Trek.
What is the difference between a "positronic brain", whatever the holograms are (The Doctor, Moriarty) and the "human engram" type copy-transfer from TOS (Little Girls, Ultimate Computer) ?
I think it's anybody's guess.
I'll say one thing though. "Positrons" are anti-matter so a "positronic brain" doesn't contain any positions. According to Asimov, positrons are involved in the making of the brain but they don't survive the process. A "positronic signature" is nonsense as far as I am concerned.
A positronic brain is fully artificial.
Holograms are projections of light that have programs. They are not solid outside a holodeck or where there are emitters. (The exception being The Doctor's mobile emitter.)
A human engram copy is a machine that has somehow had memories copied into it.
Holograms are projections of light that have programs. They are not solid outside a holodeck or where there are emitters. (The exception being The Doctor's mobile emitter.)
A human engram copy is a machine that has somehow had memories copied into it.
I meant in terms of sentience, ability to think, independent thought; what is the difference? Why is Soong and his androids looked at so completely differently than the TOS ones? One could imagine an "android body" like Data's (or Return to Tomorrow's) easily built for a hologram to inhabit, without needing an emitter... one would assume those are just programming? So is Data's programming independant, or something that requires the positronic brain to function? Why can Moriarty be so "real" without a body OR a positronic brain? There is just a whole lot of discrepancies and things that do not add up on this topic. Data has independence and autonomy, but an android with the actual memory patterns of a real person isn't worth being alive or treated like a life form.
The holograms exist as a ‘holographic matrix’...basically they can be copied, they exist in the ships memory, and are a mixture of matter being manipulated by the holodeck or photonics (light) projection according to what is needed. The more advanced, self aware holograms have made some kind of a leap, usually due to unforeseen events (being left running a long time, bynar code fiddling, simple chance...) that may well put them in a different sapience category, something closer to the data used in transporter buffers. Their bodies though are still mostly light and tractor beam technology, even when it’s something advanced being used like holoemitters.
A Soong type Android is based on a positronic brain.. a complex simulation of, or a technological version of, the human brain basically. (Or humanoid, hence Doctor Bashir using one to keep Bareil alive when his brain was damaged. You can copy the memories of a Soong type, but the personality traits etc are a natural randomly occurring effect of the growth of their neural net. In essence, you cannot really copy them (but Picard says you can sort of clone them from a bit of their neural net. It’s possible this is because it contains some organic like components.)
The human engram copy method (TOS) is an imperfect copy of a humans memory and behaviour onto an Android ‘blank’ of unknown manufacture. Given the problems they have with emotions, it’s entirely possible it is something similar to a positronic neural net, but we don’t know... it was ancient alien race tech. We see this ‘emotional failure’ occur in several different types of Android throughout Trek, with only Soong, oddly enough, able to actually eventually get it right without creating a monster or killing the artificial life form. (Such as the cascade failure that killed Lal)
There are several differences. The underlying hardware is different, the software running on the hardware is different, and the methodology is different.
In the case of the positronic brain, the goal from the beginning was to create an artificial life form that is sentient (sic; sapient would have been a better word for it).
In the case of holograms, the goal was originally to create interactive puppets in virtual-reality-type simulations. The Doctor was an outgrowth of that technology applied to emergency situations outside virtual reality. His sapience was basically an emergent property of the expert-system-type program that was never shut off, that was imbued with personality characteristics to aid his bedside manner, that was eventually given the ability to roam freely, etc.
The copy-transfer thing in TOS was basically really two things, one for each of the episodes you mention. There may or may not have been a non-canonical connection between the two (Daystrom may have, and arguably probably did, review the data from Exo III, if not the machinery itself). In "Little Girls," the transfer machinery was left over from the ancient civilization that once lived there. In "The Ultimate Computer," it's Daystrom's idea to model the machine intended to replace starship crews on his own brain and mind.
Soong achieved a copy-transfer thing too, in the case of "Data's Mother," in "Inheritance." See also "The Schizoid Man."
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Synaptic_fusion
Emotional failings, like Korby and Raina's suicide? Just trying to organize thoughts. This is one of those things where trying to fit multiple visions of "canon" from different time periods together can be complicated. Hopefully it helps the conversation along, although I'm wondering if a mod should just copy/remove all of these android posts into its own thread.
Moriarty wasn't an outgrowth of anything, and seems just as sentient as the Doctor.
Moriarty wasn't an outgrowth of anything, and seems just as sentient as the Doctor.
I think Soong confirmed it in his reaction to hearing it.
Equipment and capability. The positronic brain is capable of learning growing and forming a way that is rather unique due to its construction, and similarities to the human brain. Holograms run form the ship's computer's ability to process new information. In short, the limits are tied closely to the ship's computer and it's ability to project outside of a holographic environment.
The copy of an engram appeared to struggle, at least in TOS, with the emotional side of the human mind. It either couldn't cope with the intense emotions, or became overwhelmed by them to the point of malfunction. Basically, a mental breakdown without the human capability of coping with it.
I love Brooks. I love Shatner.
They both tended to get outside the box a LOT.
I think that’s a bit of an excuse for these (and other) clear instances where Avery overplayed things.
I think we excuse what we like.
It's not much of a limitation since Data uses contractions all the time, including that very episode.
The EMH on Voyager explicitly couldn't... until the episode that starred his backup
The EMH on Voyager explicitly couldn't... until the episode that starred his backup
There are lots of things that they absolutely can't do, except for those instances when they can. Like beaming through the shields for example.
He was an outgrowth of a computer that later had a weird AI baby, and a slip of the tongue from Geordi giving him self-awareness due to that computer being very literal. And I wouldn’t compare him to the Doctor. He’s more a proto Vic.
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