Spoilers It's possible that the Cardies were UFP members or allies before the occupation of Bajor.

[Sci]

The backstory for Cardassia in "Chain of Command, Part II" seems to contradict Gul Dukat's claim that the Cardassian system of government -- the triumvirate of the Obsidian Order, Central Command, and Detapa Council -- was 500 years old in "Defiant." I would reconcile this by assuming there's a bit of historical revisionism on Dukat's part. Maybe the Cardassian Union had those three ruling bodies for 500 years, but also maybe the Detapa Council was in charge during Madred's childhood before the Central Command took primary political power away from them. The Detapa Council could have been in charge without Cardassia being a democracy -- unelected ruling councils can exist, after all.

Anyway I find it highly improbable that Cardassia was ever a Federation Member or ally. At best, they might have been a trading partner in the past.

 

[Tim Thomason]

It would be very interesting if SNW portrayed it that way. The 500-year mark might be the establishment of the Detapa Council, and the Centralized Military and intelligence order (note that the Cardassians separate their military into Orders, and the Obsidian Order probably grew out of that) existed in mild form throughout that time. The military may have taken over in the 2300s per Madred, or just had a turnover to more autocratic style from the Detapa guys who gave the military more and more power. Perhaps, if they had been kicked out of the Federation circa 2259, this grew to them being impoverished enough to upend their governmental balance in favor of the military, which in turn promoted their expansionist behavior at the expense of the pure, innocent Bajora.

We've had evidence of one of them chilling with Vulcans around this time (or before), and now handing out awards to Starfleet's most decorated Captain, over a hundred years after they were roaming the stars and running afoul of Organians and crazy space stations. The Cardassians are not newfound entities, they've been key players on the galactic scene throughout all of Federation history.

Nothing in TNG or DS9 ever even hinted that the Cardassians were former UFP members. It's something that I would assume Dukat or Garak would've bought up as a taunt, perhaps in relation to the planned Bajoran accession into the Federation. Also, a potential point regarding the healing/saving factor of Federation membership, and why Bajor might not need to seek it if their greatest enemy had been so intertwined with them once upon a time.

I know that Discovery just cribbed the Memory Alpha list of awards for Pike's awards, but this does give them opportunity to explore the Cardassian Union and the Bajoran Republic in the pre-Occupation period. A more interesting take might be for the Cardassians to yearn for Federation membership but their governmental structure precludes them from that in Pike's report.

 

[The Wormhole]

Why during the times of TOS? If we can believe what both Picard and Gul Madred said in "Chain of Command", there is a high probability that Cardassia was a democracy during these times, without any oppression at all.

Except when you take into account Iloja of Prim the Cardassian poet who lived in Vulcan in the 22nd century to escape Cardassia's tyrannical government.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Except when you take into account Iloja of Prim the Cardassian poet who lived in Vulcan in the 22nd century to escape Cardassia's tyrannical government.

I think you're taking in fanon/non-canon into account here. All we know in canon is from "Destiny":

JADZIA: I prefer the serialist poets from the First Republic, like Iloja of Prim. He's easily my favourite Cardassian writer.
ULANI: It is so rare to meet a non-Cardassian who appreciates our literature.
JADZIA: I took an interest because I had the chance to meet Iloja.
GILORA: You knew him?
JADZIA: One of my previous hosts, Tobin, met him when he was in exile on Vulcan. As I recall, he had quite a temper.

He was in exile, but it seems to be from the Cardassian "First Republic" or perhaps just after, if this period (22nd or 23rd century, Memory Alpha seems to have changed their view on the matter) is when the Military (temporarily?) took over. Also of note, the Cardassians of the 2370s seem to be in favor of his poetry, so I don't think the 24th century Cardassian tyrannical government was the same as the 22nd/23rd century Cardassian government (First Republic?) that exiled him, even if they have a continuity of operations from the 500-year statement. The existence of a "First Republic" within the 500 years of existence for the Detapa Council/Central Command/Obsidian Order implies alot of ebbs and flows within their existing structure that is further cemented by Gul Madred's and Picard's statements.

Iloja of Prim might be pro-military, and the First Republic kicked him out for his heretical views, but the Central Command of the 2370s praises him and his accomplishments.

 

[Timo]

It's not just the timeline of Cardassian vileness that we need to consider, it's the astrography.

Bajor is a next-door neighbor to Cardassia, as we find out from the second half of the first season of DS9 onward ("Tribunal" and "The Homecoming" are important eps in that respect). One would thus expect it to be the very first victim of Cardassia's conquest spree when the military takes power, democratic or otherwise. Cardassia's presumed other acquisitions then would follow, until stripped away from it when they take one step too many and end up treading on UFP toes. At the start of DS9, Bajor thus again is the only conquest of Cardassia, being surrounded by "neutral" space that nevertheless bows to Cardassia at every opportunity and loathes the Federation (Kressari, Klaestron, Xepolites, for all we know the Yridians, too).

To believe in conquests or occupations that precede that of Bajor, we'd have to find workarounds for the astrography, and for the fact that Bajor didn't cry foul the very moment the Union offered to "help" them. This is a bit different from deciding whether or not to believe Gul Madred (I personally wouldn't, even if he claimed that there were four of 'em lights) or Gul Dukat or even Tobin Dax.

This still doesn't mean the Union bowed to military control at the same juncture it started sweet-talking and then oppressing Bajor, though. Might be the military had been in power for centuries, oppressing its own people and perhaps artificially enforcing poverty in order to better run the kleptocracy Madred describes (even if he doesn't attribute it to his bosses). Such things wouldn't preclude UFP membership by the TOS standards, but OTOH nothing would stop the UFP from having war with the Union back then already and pinning proficient service medals on soldiers who kill their share of Cardies. They have quite a tradition of love-hate relationships, after all.

In the end, we get no dating for the purported good old days, and only the vaguest dating for the bad not-quite-so-old ones allegedly relating to Madred's youth; all we really learn is the Detapa/Obsidian/Central Command triumvirate formation dating (500 years bp, "Defiant") and the time there was no acknowledged interstellar contact with Bajor yet (800 years bp, "Explorers").

Oh, and Picard knowing what Cardassia used to be like doesn't mean there should be contact or anything. He's an amateur archaeologist, a heavy emphasis on the former of the two words, and no doubt believes in a myth or seven about every culture before actually meeting them - take Bajor, say.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unimatrix Q]

QUOTE="Timo, post: 13715955, member: 2277"]
Oh, and Picard knowing what Cardassia used to be like doesn't mean there should be contact or anything. He's an amateur archaeologist, a heavy emphasis on the former of the two words, and no doubt believes in a myth or seven about every culture before actually meeting them - take Bajor, say.

Timo Saloniemi[/QUOTE]

Could be if there are myths about them from the times before they became totalitarian on other planets, outside of cardassian space? I think that might be the case. As well as possibly artefacts and ruins on other planets outside of the cardassian union.

But that assumes that Cardassia was already a spacefaring power for a longer time than the totalitarian regime exists, which is actually in line with my theory that they could have been early Federation members.

But wouldn't first contact with Bajor have happened way earlier than it apparently did, in this case?

 

[Shawnster]

First contact for whom, Cardassia or the Federation?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Romulus is too close.

The Romulans would have had a soft interest in Cardassia, which means the Federation wouldn't have met theCardassians until after the Earth Romulan war because they can't get to cardasdian/Bajoran space with out going around the Romulan Star empire plus a cushion to seem less threatening.

 

[Tuskin38]

because they can't get to cardasdian/Bajoran space with out going around the Romulan Star empire

There's no evidence of this in the shows. In fact maps in the shows have Cardassian space being on the other side of the Federation from the Romulan Empire.

 

[Guy Gardener]

SISKO: Just that she disappeared on patrol in the Romulan neutral zone. I'll look into it.
DAX: Don't bother. I'm sure it's the same old story. The Jem'Hadar crossed the Romulan border and caught them by surprise. It's only about the hundredth time it's happened.
BASHIR: I can't believe the Romulans allow them to violate their territory so brazenly. Why do they get away with it?

Dominion ships from Cardassia, attacking Federation Ships from Bajor while temporaily hiding in Romulan space.

 

[Damian]

The thing is: I can't imagine a world like Cardassia ever being considered for Federation Membership. Its values seemed completely contrary to the Federation.

Have to agree with you there. I can't imagine Cardassia ever being part of the Federation pre-Dominion War. They are highly xenophobic, warlike and totalitarian. Even the Klingon Empire is not part of the Federation, though they are allies.

I think it more plausible that Pike did something heroic that benefited the Cardassian Union in some way that earned him the award. There just being an award does not mean Cardassia was a member of the Federation or even allies. Just that someone did something good that they thought befitted an award (and maybe there were political reasons too--sometimes some nation may give an award to a popular hero of another power to curry favor from that power).

I'd recommend reading the "Occupation: Bajor" trilogy of books (considered part of the Lost Era line of stories). Those novels give a lot more insight into Cardassian culture during the early to mid 24th centuries and Cardassian history. While it's not canon, it does fit what we know of Cardassia to date.

I was actually not a fan of the Cardassians being mentioned in 23rd century productions, like Star Trek (2009) and Discovery. I think I'd prefer them to have been encountered in the early 24th century. Now....that being said it's not a huge deal for me, just more of a wish that they weren't name dropped that early in Star Trek 'history.' Oh, well, c'est la vie.

 

[thribs]

Cardies? That sounds racist.
They prefer the term, “spoon heads”.

 

[Timo]

As regards contact, we know that 800-year-old sailing ships were associated with the "myth" of Bajorans going to Cardassia, so Bajorans officially didn't go to Cardassia 800 bp. Did they go there 700 bp, though? There's no data either way.

The lightsail issue doesn't touch upon whether Cardassia had interstellar abilities and ambitions at the time. It's possible they had conventional warp cruisers at that time, which made it all the more difficult for them to accept that the primitives from the neighboring system could have paddled across the interstellar gulf in their warp canoes.

For Cardassians, making contact could be a matter of choice. For Bajorans 800 bp, there would be no choice, but a lack of technology instead. For Bajorans at all other times, there might have been a choice - and we know Bajorans are extreme homebodies, choosing not to go even to their own paradise moon.

Clearly, contact isn't the same thing as building your first warp engine. We never hear of Cochrane contacting anybody out there; the Vulcans came to him. For all we know, the first-ever first contact Earth herself made was by Archer, in "Unexpected" which is the first time anybody actually stops to talk to him. Might be Cardassia contacted nobody for a century or two after going interstellar, quite regardless of whether it was a militaristic democracy or a liberal dictatorship. But it would be a bit odd for them not to go to neighboring Bajor.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MAGolding]

Cardies? That sounds racist.
They prefer the term, “spoon heads”.

I like to thinkof them as Hard Assians.

 

[Timo]

Dukat in "Indiscretion" would beg to differ. Ouch!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unimatrix Q]

First contact for whom, Cardassia or the Federation?

The Federation

Have to agree with you there. I can't imagine Cardassia ever being part of the Federation pre-Dominion War. They are highly xenophobic, warlike and totalitarian. Even the Klingon Empire is not part of the Federation, though they are allies.

I think it more plausible that Pike did something heroic that benefited the Cardassian Union in some way that earned him the award. There just being an award does not mean Cardassia was a member of the Federation or even allies. Just that someone did something good that they thought befitted an award (and maybe there were political reasons too--sometimes some nation may give an award to a popular hero of another power to curry favor from that power).

I'd recommend reading the "Occupation: Bajor" trilogy of books (considered part of the Lost Era line of stories). Those novels give a lot more insight into Cardassian culture during the early to mid 24th centuries and Cardassian history. While it's not canon, it does fit what we know of Cardassia to date.

I was actually not a fan of the Cardassians being mentioned in 23rd century productions, like Star Trek (2009) and Discovery. I think I'd prefer them to have been encountered in the early 24th century. Now....that being said it's not a huge deal for me, just more of a wish that they weren't name dropped that early in Star Trek 'history.' Oh, well, c'est la vie.

But if we only look at canon and according to what Gul Madred said in "Chain of Command", it seems that Cardassia wasn't the totalitarian state we know, during his youth.

Why else would he have any reason to scoff at what Jean Luc said?

 

[Timo]

Actually, Madred never associates the good old days with his youth.

His youth was hell. The military was there to lift him from that hell. There's little data on when the military came to be, though.

The data on the good old days is limited to this:

"Did you know that Cardassia boasts some of the most ancient and splendid ruins in the entire galaxy?"

No data on the age of those ruins, other than the likely interpretation that those place went to ruin in ancient times already.

"I know that the burial vaults of the First Hebitian civilisation are said to be magnificent."

This in response to the "ancient ruins". Apparently, the First Hebitians aren't around any longer. But they clearly didn't live in abject poverty! (Although the young Madreds of their time may have.)

"Apparently when they were first unearthed two hundred years ago, they were. The burial vaults contained unimaginably beautiful artefacts made of jevonite, a rare, breathtaking stone. But most of those objects are gone."

No data on whether the unearthing was by an impoverished and militaristic Cardassia, or perhaps by the spiritualistic and rich Fifth Hebitians.

"What happens to impoverished societies. The tombs were plundered, priceless treasures stolen, a few were preserved in museums but even those were eventually sold in order to pay for our war efforts."

This really sounds as if the society was both impoverished and at war during the unearthing already, and we have no data on how long this state of affairs may have existed. Had the unearthing 200 years bp taken place in the good old days, the riches would have gone to museums first before things went south. Yet Madred says most were stolen right off the bat.

Regardless of whether Madred is 200 years old or not, the days of bliss would seem to be well before his day. And the war would seem to be old news, not an instant cure to poverty but more like one of the contributing causes.

"That war cost you hundreds of thousands of lives. It depleted your food supplies, left your population weakened and miserable and yet you risk another war."

Picard really feels the war was bad for Cardassia. But which war? The Feds haven't been fighting the Union for 200 years, as far as we can tell (but we really can't, because we couldn't during the first half of TNG when the war was ongoing!). Is Picard speaking of some sort of a never-ending sacrifice that characterizes modern Cardassian existence, and has for centuries? Is the Union at constant war?

Probably not, because Picard then speaks of that "another war", as if there currently were none...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Actually, Madred never associates the good old days with his youth.

His youth was hell. The military was there to lift him from that hell. There's little data on when the military came to be, though.

The data on the good old days is limited to this:

"Did you know that Cardassia boasts some of the most ancient and splendid ruins in the entire galaxy?"

No data on the age of those ruins, other than the likely interpretation that those place went to ruin in ancient times already.

"I know that the burial vaults of the First Hebitian civilisation are said to be magnificent."

This in response to the "ancient ruins". Apparently, the First Hebitians aren't around any longer. But they clearly didn't live in abject poverty! (Although the young Madreds of their time may have.)

"Apparently when they were first unearthed two hundred years ago, they were. The burial vaults contained unimaginably beautiful artefacts made of jevonite, a rare, breathtaking stone. But most of those objects are gone."

No data on whether the unearthing was by an impoverished and militaristic Cardassia, or perhaps by the spiritualistic and rich Fifth Hebitians.

"What happens to impoverished societies. The tombs were plundered, priceless treasures stolen, a few were preserved in museums but even those were eventually sold in order to pay for our war efforts."

This really sounds as if the society was both impoverished and at war during the unearthing already, and we have no data on how long this state of affairs may have existed. Had the unearthing 200 years bp taken place in the good old days, the riches would have gone to museums first before things went south. Yet Madred says most were stolen right off the bat.

Regardless of whether Madred is 200 years old or not, the days of bliss would seem to be well before his day. And the war would seem to be old news, not an instant cure to poverty but more like one of the contributing causes.

"That war cost you hundreds of thousands of lives. It depleted your food supplies, left your population weakened and miserable and yet you risk another war."

Picard really feels the war was bad for Cardassia. But which war? The Feds haven't been fighting the Union for 200 years, as far as we can tell (but we really can't, because we couldn't during the first half of TNG when the war was ongoing!). Is Picard speaking of some sort of a never-ending sacrifice that characterizes modern Cardassian existence, and has for centuries? Is the Union at constant war?

Probably not, because Picard then speaks of that "another war", as if there currently were none...

Timo Saloniemi

Yeah, it's wrong to call it the good old days, but it seems from what Madred has said that the takeover by the military happened after the events he mentioned. Maybe there was still a democractic government in power that couldn't handle the crisis.

Why else would he praise the cardassian military for making things better for his people since then?

 

[Timo]

That's it, though: we don't have to believe in "since then".

Having a powerful military that constantly engages in pillaging and rebuilding is good for poor kids at every juncture of Cardassian history, because enlisting means warm food, a soft bed, and the opportunity to finally kick those other poor kids in the head with impunity. For the kids that enlisted, and for their adorable daughters.

Picard says war left Cardassia impoverished. Madred says spirituality left Cardassia impoverished. Both might be wrong, or one might be. But everything said can also hold true simultaneously easily enough. Just assume that the war that Picard speaks about made Madred's childhood hell, and that the spirituality that Madred speaks about made the childhood of Madred's great-great-great-great-grandfather hell. The military engaging in a conquest spree brought a bit of wealth to the soldiers, just like the pillaging of the old burial chambers brought a bit of wealth to the thieves (who may have been the aforementioned soldiers for all we know). None of that really changes the fact that Cardassia is always hell for the poor, and a nice place for the soldiers to prosper.

What the exchange would have us believe if wholly accepted as truthful, possibly against writer intent, is that there was war some 200 years bp already - thus most probably not with the UFP. Possibly the early Cardassian conquests weren't walks in the park, and actually left the planet poorer than ever, until there were victories and finally an inflow of loot from places like Bajor. Perhaps Bajor was among the first successful conquests, even though there were a few unsuccessful ones earlier on - possibly just as close to the Cardassian home system, only in other directions (those facing away from the UFP!)?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

I wish the writers paid more attention to their fake chronologies.