32nd century personal transporters

[Timo]

Those transporters are, I believe, single use and might require a predetermined destination given their lack of interface.

No such dialogue as regards the "Non Sequitur" device. It's simply called "site-to-site transporter", which isn't anything exotic even in the Archer era: any transporter is capable of that by default, it seems. And no, it's not locked to a destination: Paris asks for one and keys it in as we watch.

"Lack of interface" is what phones today have. They are nondescript slabs of glass, by design and intent, and for the very same reason things are as they are in Trek: because it looks cool. Indeed, given the design, Paris' remote is likely to be a consumer product, as Starfleet tools would have clumsy buttons even on their touchscreens...

It's an exclusive product, though, as Paris speaks as if it were somewhat exceptional for one to possess one ("With friends like mine, you never know when it'll come in handy" doesn't make it sound like everybody had one of these in her womanpurse or manbelt or whatever the people of the future use in lieu of pockets). But it would be downright weird for Kim not to have a transporter in his apartment (or at least in the building), or for him to be unable to access one over at the nearest Starbucks. Having site-to-site offers him no advantage whatsoever. The only thing he needs is access codes, and Paris has those in his device, while the Starbucks system might balk at having the flagged coordinates keyed in and call the authorities.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ash's boomstick]

Mem Alpha indicates that it is used instead of a normal transporter (although any fan wiki can say anything), but also the one Data used in Nemesis couldn't have been tied into any of the shuttle transporters and I thought the entire transporter network on the E-E was down at that point hence the 'space dive' when it would have been just as simple to get to another transporter room.

Apart from bad writing of course, that just explains every bad plot hole in the film.

 

[Tuskin38]

While it only had the transport something the size of a bullet, the TR-116 rifle had a built in transporter.

If they could do that in 24th, I imagine by the 32nd they could make a self contained combadge sized transporter.

 

[publiusr]

I can see a history where this beaming tech replaces starships. People vanish--and folks have to re-learn spaceflight to build back infrastructure and find the missing.

 

[Deks]

While it only had the transport something the size of a bullet, the TR-116 rifle had a built in transporter.

If they could do that in 24th, I imagine by the 32nd they could make a self contained combadge sized transporter.

By the 32nd century, the personal transporter would be atomic in size, excessively efficient, transwarp capable beaming... essentially, it should be millions/billions of those interconnected/networked with similarly sized power sources which would allow transport anywhere in the nearby galaxies (aka, farthest being Andromeda for example).

Alas... the writers apparently know nothing about exponential advancements and returns.

 

[Timo]

Why would such a thing be relevant in Trek? What we see is not the process but the end product: hundreds if not thousands of civilizations have been interacting to produce the technology we see in action, over thousands of years. There's little or nothing to advance to - because if there were, they'd already be there.

Humans are not climbing a curve there. Even the Federation isn't. They are merely riding along, and the ride isn't getting any wilder. At least not until some sort of a singularity or whatever throws a player off the saddle altogether and to the next level, to noncorporeal existence where personal transporting indeed is a matter of snapping one's fingers.

It would seem that practical travel between galaxies is not for mortals: sure, it can be done, but if you're that far along, you don't play the game any longer. For all we know, the Feds have deliberately chosen to play, and not to go the Zalkonian-Organian-Q route quite yet. Or then doing better than the Kelvans or the Iconians requires at least a hundred thousand years of concentrating on unlikely and unproductive research in hopes of serendipity and singularity, and does not involve progress in the conventional sense.

Based on world history so far, we ITRW can't tell if hitting a ceiling is likely or not. The writers of Trek have no alternative, though: their galaxy necessarily has hit the armored-glass ceiling, or else humans couldn't be the heroes and there couldn't exist this comfortable gap between them and the true gods: there'd be a continuum of advancement levels so that newcomers like humans would be explicit slaves and pariahs of the galaxy, enslaved by those only slightly better who then would have their own explicit masters, with masters of their own till the very top.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tuskin38]

Alas... the writers apparently know nothing about exponential advancements and returns.

It's all about what makes good/Fun/interesting TV. What you describe wouldn't make good/Fun/interesting TV.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

By the 32nd century, the personal transporter would be atomic in size, excessively efficient, transwarp capable beaming... essentially, it should be millions/billions of those interconnected/networked with similarly sized power sources which would allow transport anywhere in the nearby galaxies (aka, farthest being Andromeda for example).

Alas... the writers apparently know nothing about exponential advancements and returns.

Again, you're extrapolating things with "Exponential" growth with no basis on scientific or technical reality.

 

[Ronald Held]

For allwe know tech advancement peaked in the 25th century,and UPF just continued with little major advancements.

 

[Deks]

Again, you're extrapolating things with "Exponential" growth with no basis on scientific or technical reality.

Why?
Look at how much computer processing power increased in just 50 years and how much power we can fit into a smartphone today vs smartphones from just 10 years ago (look at how much supercomputing power shot up in just 10 years).
We also developed a computer processor which is smaller than the grain of rice.
By the 24th century, the personal transporter was something the size of a smartphone (ok, a bit larger). By the 25th, it'd gone commbadge-size or much smaller (the equivalent of a CPU that's smaller than the grain of rice right now - so you can technically already by THAT time get badges we saw in the 32nd century). By the 26th century, molecular or atomic sized (aka, millions/billions of transporters, sensors, comms, replicator, etc. all networked/linked together to give you a ridiculously powerful piece of technology that's spread throughout your entire skin (outer or inner layer) or spread throughout the entire clothes you wear.

Over 150 different alien species working together... not just 1 (and even for 1 technology would evolve at stupidly fast levels with automated R&D).

 

[Deks]

For allwe know tech advancement peaked in the 25th century,and UPF just continued with little major advancements.

There's no reason to think anything of the kind would actually happen (I'm actually sad that people really think this).

There is no 'upper ceiling' for technology and science, and if you reach a ceiling for 1 technology, you'll end up looking for alternatives and develop them (like we've always done)... and come on, the Federation encountered technology FAR more advanced than its own on numerous occasions... and we saw that the 32nd century is not really on that level of super-technology (even though it should have reached and surpassed it in a few centuries at best).

Not to mention the fact that we're talking about over 150 alien races working together.
You realize how powerful just 1 civilization can get with exponential advancements and returns?
Now multiply that by at least 150 times.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Why?
Look at how much computer processing power increased in just 50 years and how much power we can fit into a smartphone today vs smartphones from just 10 years ago (look at how much supercomputing power shot up in just 10 years).
We also developed a computer processor which is smaller than the grain of rice.
By the 24th century, the personal transporter was something the size of a smartphone (ok, a bit larger). By the 25th, it'd gone nanoscale likely. By the 26th, atomic sized technology.

Over 150 different alien species working together... not just 1 (and even for 1 technology would evolve at stupidly fast levels with automated R&D).

If you actually understood what can and can't be done on a micro circuitry level, then you'll understand that it's not something that just goes on forever. There are laws of diminishing returns.

And as far as the CPU that is the size of a grain of rice, it's computing capability is incredibly limited.

It does have it's uses, but it's niche.

Again, you sound like a fan-boy who just reads a few articles and has no understanding of real world Micro Circuitry creation and how complicated it is.

We're already at the atomic level for circuitry where a transistor takes up only a few atoms.

There are limits based on reality & the laws of physics.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Not to mention the fact that we're talking about over 150 alien races working together.
You realize how powerful just 1 civilization can get with exponential advancements and returns?
Now multiply that by at least 150 times.

150 civilizations turns into 1 civilization very, very quickly. Like, probably in 2161 pretty much (hence the jump from Warp 5 to Warp 7 once all the barriers to technology were lifted). After that, the Federation began mostly including lesser powered species in their expansions, so advancements were all on them, and their equally powered rivals (while lesser species worked to keep up, and higher species apparently keep out of galactic affairs for some reason: with notable exceptions like the Borg and the Dominion that push everybody forward a tiny bit).

 

[Timo]

Also, what is the basis for thinking that two civilizations would produce more than one? Odds are that trying to fit the two in the same lab would just hamper the process, there being more ideas but less agreement on how to proceed, and plenty of communication difficulties.

This is an issue that must have been studied extensively already, for a certain value of "civilization". Corporations must know whether to embrace or tolerate dissent, or to mercilessly stamp it down and enforce uniformity, for greater productivity. And for my narrow viewpoint into this, esp. in microelectronics, the latter seems to be the working solution.

A fun analogy is the use of multiple processors in computing and Amdahl's law. Even with relatively straightforward computing tasks, yes, two heads may think twice as smartly as one - but eight heads only think 1.5 times as well as one (no, I don't mean we get 8 x 1.5 - we just get the lousy 1.5), and twenty think much worse than one. Research tasks aren't straightforward, that is, linear and separate: they are interconnected, which means multiple processors would fare extremely badly and would soon bring research to a grinding halt when all the computing power would be spent trying to deconflict the interdepartment memos.

Analogies aside, has research on our historical Earth ever benefited from this purported synergy? A single research machine may steal individual ideas from another, or Hungarians may invent everything for the rest of the world which then takes care of the practical execution. But individual research cultures do their damnedest to remain individual, either for competitive reasons, or then for political ones.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

150 civilizations turns into 1 civilization very, very quickly. Like, probably in 2161 pretty much (hence the jump from Warp 5 to Warp 7 once all the barriers to technology were lifted). After that, the Federation began mostly including lesser powered species in their expansions, so advancements were all on them, and their equally powered rivals (while lesser species worked to keep up, and higher species apparently keep out of galactic affairs for some reason: with notable exceptions like the Borg and the Dominion that push everybody forward a tiny bit).

The federation was founded in 2161 by 4 species.
By the 24th century it was comprised of over 150 alien species... and no, it didn't really turn into 1 (because as we saw, each species retains its own cultural identity despite beign part of a greater whole).

Also, inclusion of less advanced species doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to contribute anything.
Each alien species has differences compared to others that would be able to provide insights that probably wouldn't occur to others - there were alien scientists who came from less advanced civilizations and had ideas that they could implement by having access to Federation technology for example.

They also reside in parts of space which contain different properties and may have influenced different technological evolution and ideas.
The variety of data by itself would be humongous between just dozens (never-mind 150) alien races.

Sure, the Federation did include some less advanced species before and after the Dominion War (which caused a lot of damage), but there's no evidence to support the idea that this is a continuing trend or that these species wouldn't contribute anything.

 

[Deks]

If you actually understood what can and can't be done on a micro circuitry level, then you'll understand that it's not something that just goes on forever. There are laws of diminishing returns.

And as far as the CPU that is the size of a grain of rice, it's computing capability is incredibly limited.

It does have it's uses, but it's niche.

Again, you sound like a fan-boy who just reads a few articles and has no understanding of real world Micro Circuitry creation and how complicated it is.

We're already at the atomic level for circuitry where a transistor takes up only a few atoms.

There are limits based on reality & the laws of physics.

Limits based on materials we use and the laws of physics they are subject to yes.
Different materials have different properties and can therefore provide options that aren't available with standard materials.
There are other carbon based materials which we have yet to fully use (such as carbon nanotubes, synthetic diamonds and graphene to name a few).
There are also quantum metamaterials which we hadn't used in construction of computer chips (some experimentation is being done to test what they can do... but otherwise, no).

I may not have perfect understanding of micro circuitry, but I don't need it... and also, no one does (not even experts in that field do because the amount of data on just 1 subject vastly exceeds people's ability to absorb it all in any appreciable amount of time given our biological limitations and how fast/slow we learn [that is without implementing some kind of cyber enhancements for fast reading, full recall, etc.) - at best, they would absorb a mere fraction of information in ANY given subject - and even they would probably have to say that they probably don't know what kind of progression we will make with invention of new materials, or simple combination of pre-existing ones).

The Federation is spread over 8000 Ly's by the late 24th century. The amount of different anomalies and problems SF encountered exploring their own section of the galaxy would provide them with immense amount of information and spark interest in creating ships that can better protect themselves against those kinds of problems (or better yet, become immune all-together to them).

Yes, I can definitely picture 'limits' to science and technology in such a setting - not really.

 

[Tim Thomason]

I'm just restating your same points, Deks. The biggest technological advance in Earth/Starfleet history would be in 2161, when they finally fully join the galactic scene. 4 species or 150 species, they'd have access to a range of external technologies at the highest tier achievable. All future advancements (with a few exceptions) will be done internally.

 

[Timo]

Indeed it should be obvious that mere numbers of participants do not result in exponential progress: China has vastly more people working on any given problem (say, quantum computing) than Finland does, but it is not even linearly ahead of the smaller player as the result.

No doubt having three orders of magnitude more people will give some advantage, but there are scant few examples where it would provide an advantage of even one order of magnitude, in things such as research that involves innovation (although even pure number-crunching fares badly there) or creation of great works of art or other inspiration-type victories such as commercial or military triumphs. Inspiration just doesn't work like that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Indeed it should be obvious that mere numbers of participants do not result in exponential progress: China has vastly more people working on any given problem (say, quantum computing) than Finland does, but it is not even linearly ahead of the smaller player as the result.

The same can be stated for India as well.

Quantity is not equivalent to Quality.

It really does takes special circumstances, an outstanding group of people, and the right environment for them to make real progress in this world.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Different materials have different properties and can therefore provide options that aren't available with standard materials.
There are other carbon based materials which we have yet to fully use (such as carbon nanotubes, synthetic diamonds and graphene to name a few).
There are also quantum metamaterials which we hadn't used in construction of computer chips (some experimentation is being done to test what they can do... but otherwise, no).

And it takes a long time and real need / impetus to go exploring down another materials path.

I may not have perfect understanding of micro circuitry, but I don't need it... and also, no one does (not even experts in that field do because the amount of data on just 1 subject vastly exceeds people's ability to absorb it all in any appreciable amount of time given our biological limitations and how fast/slow we learn [that is without implementing some kind of cyber enhancements for fast reading, full recall, etc.) - at best, they would absorb a mere fraction of information in ANY given subject - and even they would probably have to say that they probably don't know what kind of progression we will make with invention of new materials, or simple combination of pre-existing ones).

That's why you have large teams with different specialists that work together in big groups under a organization. Or a company.

The Federation is spread over 8000 Ly's by the late 24th century. The amount of different anomalies and problems SF encountered exploring their own section of the galaxy would provide them with immense amount of information and spark interest in creating ships that can better protect themselves against those kinds of problems (or better yet, become immune all-together to them).

Having more powerful weapons & shields is just one aspect along the arms & defense tech development track.

Having immunity to radiation of a specific type or weird anomalies is another different type of problem solving.

Miniaturization of Electronic Circuitry is a whole different ball game.

Yes, I can definitely picture 'limits' to science and technology in such a setting - not really.

You don't seem to understand that if you want a "Realistic" way of looking at the future world, you need to be a polymath who learns more in every field, as much as possible.

Having a proper foundation in science and how the technology works is part of that along with the history of how we got to where we are.