ENT: Regeneration might fix a plot hole in Voyager.

[Tuskin38]

How did Seven of Nine know about the events of First Contact?

She says she knows about them because 'the borg were present for those events'. Except the Borg in FC never sent their signal off, so the past Borg would have never known they were there.

In ENT: Regeneration the Borg do send a signal off, but T'Pol says it would take roughly 200 years for it to reach the Delta Quadrant.

So the borg in the 24th Century would learn about the events, which is how Seven learned about them.

Though then the Queen goes and does the same thing again, unless we do a bit of hand waving and say the signal arrived after the events of First Contact. Or the signal didn’t include how the Borg lost.

Thoughts?

 

[Markonian]

Clever!
I never thought about how Seven can know about the 2063 events when no Borg survived their participation.
Your idea is a smooth solution.

 

[Tuskin38]

I also think the signal is responsible for the Borg being active in the Beta quadrant before Q introduces the Enterprise to them.

People seem to forget, the destruction of the Federation and Romulan outposts at the end of TNG Season 1 was the Borg, or at least retconned to be.

Though that’s really not compatible with the Queen still going back in time even after it failed the first time, unless she’s that arrogant and thinks she can still win.

 

[Finn]

How did Seven of Nine know about the events of First Contact?

She says she knows about them because 'the borg were present for those events'. Except the Borg in FC never sent their signal off, so the past Borg would have never known they were there.

In ENT: Regeneration the Borg do send a signal off, but T'Pol says it would take roughly 200 years for it to reach the Delta Quadrant.

So the borg in the 24th Century would learn about the events, which is how Seven learned about them.

Though then the Queen goes and does the same thing again, unless we do a bit of hand waving and say the signal arrived after the events of First Contact. Or the signal didn’t include how the Borg lost.

Thoughts?

What plot hole? They were planning on going back in time. Seven was part of the collective, so she would have been aware of them until the moment they went back into time...

 

[Tuskin38]

What plot hole? They were planning on going back in time. Seven was part of the collective, so she would have been aware of them until the moment they went back into time...

The dialogue implies she only knows about the Phoenix because the Borg were physically there

SEVEN: The Phoenix.
KIM: What?
SEVEN: The correct response to your query. The vessel Ensign Kim was describing. It was designated the Phoenix.
KIM: Not bad. I didn't realise you knew so much about Earth history.
SEVEN: I don't, but the Borg were present during those events.
KIM: Really.
SEVEN: It's a complicated story. Perhaps another time.

She's saying she has knowledge of the ship is because the Borg were at the launch.

 

[Finn]

Right...they were planning on it. The time travel wasn’t accidental.

 

[dupersuper]

First Contact and Regeneration also explains why there were rumors of these "Borg" that enticed 7s parents to go searching for killer cyborgs in deep space with their young daughter. That plus their massive stupidity and managing to keep their plans from child services gives us 7s origin.

 

[Tuskin38]

Right...they were planning on it. The time travel wasn’t accidental.

her line implies she only has the info after they went back in time, not before.

She only knows because they were actually there, the word 'present' in the text. She doesn't say 'because they planned to'. She says because they were present.

 

[Finn]

her line implies she only has the info after they went back in time, not before.

She only knows because they were actually there, the word 'present' in the text. She doesn't say 'because they planned to'. She says because they were present.

Yeah, you are right.

 

[Tim Thomason]

She also might know that the Borg were present at those events because Zefram Cochrane told everyone that the Borg were present at those events. No one seems to have listened to him.

 

[Finn]

She also might know that the Borg were present at those events because Zefram Cochrane told everyone that the Borg were present at those events. No one seems to have listened to him.

Yeah. The Borg assilimated someone who was familiar with that speech Cochrane did at Princeton.

Or hell, her parents knew about it...

 

[at Quark's]

Strictly speaking, what Seven says doesn't make too much sense.

The Borg traveled deliberately back to the First Contact moment, not to another point in history. They probably determined this was the optimal moment to assimilate Earth in the past, failing their original direct assault. In order to make that determination, they would have studied Earth history first (they had assimilated Starfleet personnel and perhaps they also got the archives from some assimilated federation ships). So regardless of whether the Borg could send a signal back or not, this history (including the fact that the ship's name would have been Phoenix) would already have been part of their knowledge. So why would 7 _not_ have this knowledge from that assessment, but _still_ 'remember' them being there? (If she can't hold all Borg knowledge in her head, there's no particular reason why that one piece of information would have been important but not the other).

 

[Timo]

I see no confusion there. Seven establishes that she is no expert on Earth history, but then explains why she would be aware of this specific bit of trivia: because, unlike the Napoleonic Wars or the invention of penicillin, it was actually important to the Borg (i.e. they were there).

Why the Borg went to the Phoenix is unknown. Picard surmises it was because they wanted to stop Cochrane from flying, and the Queen then performs some actions that appear to support that speculation. Yet Cochrane flies, and the Federation is born - and the Borg appear to be fine with it, not fixing the situation with their established time travel capabilities. Given those capabilities, ST:FC really has to be a Borg victory, because the Borg could not lose. Any failure would merely automatically lead to the future Borg sending another expedition for the first time, and on some iteration of that, the narrowest margin by which the heroes won against this superior foe would evaporate, and the Borg would win, which would be the point where the iterations would cease.

So perhaps the Borg went to the past to ensure that Cochrane would fly and the deliciously assimilable UFP would be born? It is solely thanks to them that Cochrane gets the helping hands of LaForge and Barclay, not to mention their knowledge of how one actually goes about building a warp drive...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[somebuddyX]

I think Seven's statement holds up no matter the Enterprise inclusion. The Borg's time travel adventure only happened a year ago at that point and to her home planet, so even if she didn't care for Earth history she might be interested in specific Earth and Borg history. Also Seven was a part of Unimatrix 01 which we later found out worked closely with the Queen, who orchestrated the whole shebang. Going only by Voyager's episodes she still could put it together that they'd timewarped and failed. But with Enterprise you can add in that she knew of the Zefram Cochrane references, the NX-01's encounter and the 200 year old message as well.

 

[DonIago]

I kind of like Timo's idea that the Borg are responsible for Cochrane's flight succeeding.

Especially since, if you go by the "Destiny" trilogy, the Borg would need Cochrane to achieve warp flight to ensure their own creation.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Just because the Borg are the bad guys, doesn't mean they aren't interested in preserving the timeline. Their whole thing is perfection, and they can't achieve that if the universe is at stake from lesser beings, like the Krenim and the Federation, mucking things up. Best keep an eye on those two and occasionally nab a ship or three for continuous intel.

Also nice to get practice runs on assimilation by creating alternate timelines and then erasing those.

 

[Tuskin38]

VOY: Relativity does imply the events of First Contact was a type of causality loop

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.
SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event.
DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?
SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They succeeded, but that in turn led the starship Enterprise to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.
DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its existence to the Borg.
SEVEN: You're welcome.

A predestination paradox if you will.

 

[Kor]

Even before the ENT episode, I never thought Seven's statement as a contradiction or plot hole. It just hints that the Borg collective has some kind of higher awareness that transcends our understanding of time and space and subspace signals or whatever. As the Borg Queen would say, we Earthicans "think in such three-dimensional terms."

Kor

 

[Tuskin38]

Even before the ENT episode, I never thought Seven's statement as a contradiction or plot hole. It just hints that the Borg collective has some kind of higher awareness that transcends our understanding of time and space and subspace signals or whatever. As the Borg Queen would say, we Earthicans "think in such three-dimensional terms."

Kor

That doesn't explain why they needed the Ent-E's deflector to send a signal. Plus the Vinculum thing they invented for voyager that connects all the ships to the collective.

 

[Deks]

It is solely thanks to them that Cochrane gets the helping hands of LaForge and Barclay, not to mention their knowledge of how one actually goes about building a warp drive...

Timo Saloniemi

Cochrane already built the Warp drive which worked (Laforge and Barclay had no hand in its initial creation).
The Borg attacked the compound where the Phoenix was located and caused damage to the Phoenix and the compound... which the Enterprise-E crew simply helped repair (they did NOT help invent the Warp drive - they simply ensured he got a chance to fly it on schedule).