A Little Bit of Love For Diane Carey

[David cgc]

I think the last time I read Fire Ship was nineteen or twenty years ago. I've always liked it. Her other Star Trek novel that leans super-hard into the "fighting sail" tropes is Ancient Blood, in which Picard and Alexander explore a holodeck program about the Royal Navy during the American Revolution. I loved that.

The specific aspect that made me think of Fire Ship while I was on Lady Washington was the plotline with Janeway judging that the crew was a bunch of over-familiar slackers who needed a dose of hard-ass military discipline. My experience was hardly comprehensive, but from what I've heard from other people, it was representative, with a crew made up of regular Joe-and-Jane professional sailors who were doing it as a career, semi-pro hired crew who were keeping busy during retirement or adventuring between aspects of a more conventional lifestyle, and volunteers like me who were dropping in for fun because they liked sailing, adventure stories, or were big ol' history nerds.

I'm curious if I were to revisit the novel in that light, would I see it as Carey having been disappointed by the casual vibe of one or more crews she'd been on, and taking that out on her fictional crew by having Janeway whip them into shape, or if she'd liked the vibe just fine, and was exploring a "what-if" scenario where a bunch of happy historical fun-time sailors had to take the seamanship skills they already had and recontextualize themselves as a disciplined, military crew? From what I remember, I think it's more likely the latter, since Janeway came away appreciating the camaraderie of being on a non-military crew, but the "Broken Bow" and "Endgame" novelizations definitely showed Carey wasn't too good for a little passive-aggressive editorializing, so I might've just missed her ragging on people she'd crewed with since I lacked context.

 

[Cake Is Eternal]

I

The specific aspect that made me think of Fire Ship while I was on Lady Washington was the plotline with Janeway judging that the crew was a bunch of over-familiar slackers who needed a dose of hard-ass military discipline. My experience was hardly comprehensive, but from what I've heard from other people, it was representative, with a crew made up of regular Joe-and-Jane professional sailors who were doing it as a career, semi-pro hired crew who were keeping busy during retirement or adventuring between aspects of a more conventional lifestyle, and volunteers like me who were dropping in for fun because they liked sailing, adventure stories, or were big ol' history nerds.

I'm curious if I were to revisit the novel in that light, would I see it as Carey having been disappointed by the casual vibe of one or more crews she'd been on, and taking that out on her fictional crew by having Janeway whip them into shape, or if she'd liked the vibe just fine, and was exploring a "what-if" scenario where a bunch of happy historical fun-time sailors had to take the seamanship skills they already had and recontextualize themselves as a disciplined, military crew? From what I remember, I think it's more likely the latter, since Janeway came away appreciating the camaraderie of being on a non-military crew, but the "Broken Bow" and "Endgame" novelizations definitely showed Carey wasn't too good for a little passive-aggressive editorializing, so I might've just missed her ragging on people she'd crewed with since I lacked context.

I really loved Fire Ship. IIRC, the idea of Fire Ship was Janeway’s humbling, learning as much from the Omians as they eventually learned from her, realizing that they had as much to offer her as she did them. A story about learning and growing from one another. I loved it!

 

[JD]

Pretty much everything I've heard about Diane Carey's writing has me more or less convinced I wouldn't like it, so I've never read any of her book.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I only know her from the thread here where they were talking how cheeky she was for using the Broken Bow novelisation to critique some of the stupid moments in the episode. I thought what she did was hilarious.

I thought it was childish and, frankly, rude.

Like that time Alan Tudyk (Wash from Firefly) said, and I quote, "Star Trek is for pussies".

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I'm curious if I were to revisit the novel in that light, would I see it as Carey having been disappointed by the casual vibe of one or more crews she'd been on, and taking that out on her fictional crew by having Janeway whip them into shape, or if she'd liked the vibe just fine, and was exploring a "what-if" scenario where a bunch of happy historical fun-time sailors had to take the seamanship skills they already had and recontextualize themselves as a disciplined, military crew? From what I remember, I think it's more likely the latter, since Janeway came away appreciating the camaraderie of being on a non-military crew, but the "Broken Bow" and "Endgame" novelizations definitely showed Carey wasn't too good for a little passive-aggressive editorializing, so I might've just missed her ragging on people she'd crewed with since I lacked context.

I DEFINITELY picked up a sense of ragging on Crusher in her Descent novelization. The narrative text had Crusher repeatedly thinking about not being cut out for the captain’s chair, which undermined the whole character arc from the episode (and was soundly contradicted by later season seven episodes). Plus there was this odd scene early on that rubbed me wrong about Crusher talking to Deanna about taking up knitting for some bizarre reason. Can’t say why exactly - I think it has something to do with, knowing that Gates McFadden and Marina Sirtis both had to fight to get more dynamic portrayals, it felt kind of stifling, like it was trying to stuff Crusher back into a mold that was already being imposed on her unjustly.

And there was an internal aside from Picard about how they must always rely on technobabble when Geordi suggests resetting Data’s ethics systems. Which got particularly irritating when her unfamiliarity with TNG shows and she has Crusher credit metaphasic shielding as “something Geordi had been working on,” rather than make any reference to the episode centered on Crusher that introduced them, so at least that technobabble was ESTABLISHED technobabble, having been built up.

Personally, while I can tolerate some of her TOS books, even find a couple enjoyable, I’ve found that she’s the author of original novels that I’m most frequently skipping during my rereads, especially the few non-TOS novels she wrote.

 

[Nyotarules]

Also, I liked the "Dreadnought" "Battlestations!" duology she wrote. That was a unique story in Star Trek fiction in that they are told from a first person perspective from the eyes of an original character, Lt. Piper. Carey did a really good job with those stories and she managed to avoid any Mary Sue pitfalls that could probably be easy to do when writing a story from that perspective.

There is a fan rumour that Lt Piper was the writer putting herself in the story

 

[flandry84]

The naval stuff and the hollow sounding bonhomie was exhausting.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

There is a fan rumour that Lt Piper was the writer putting herself in the story

I don't think that's rumor. The likenesses of Piper and Sarda on the covers to Dreadnought and Battlestations were of Carey and her husband, Greg Brodeur.

 

[Therin of Andor]

My introduction to a new Trek message board was wandering into to say how much I had enjoyed a then-new release, "Double Helix: Red Sector", which I had just finished. Previously, I had loved all of Carey's stuff and I really liked that "Red Sector" had some great character work, a Spock and McCoy reunion and fun plot ironies - a but somehow I had missed that she supposedly always imposed her "political agenda" to all of her books, making them intolerable to so many readers?

"Dreadnought!", "Final Frontier" and "The Captain's Table: Fire Ship" are particularly excellent. Her character contributions to the "New Earth" saga (and "Chainmail") were great.

 

[diankra]

I enjoyed her early novels as a break with the usual style of Trek. Later on they seemed like a political lecture (a somewhat narrow minded one, that didn't understand that/whyTrek was popular outside the US).

 

[Dukhat]

I thought it was childish and, frankly, rude.

Well, it was extremely unprofessional, to say the least. I'm not sure what she was thinking. I assume that at that point in her career, she just developed a big head about her self-importance in the Star Trek novel writing universe, and felt she could get away with something like that. She was wrong.

 

[The Wormhole]

Like that time Alan Tudyk (Wash from Firefly) said, and I quote, "Star Trek is for pussies".

Pretty sure he was joking when he said that.

 

[somebuddyX]

Actually, I did once read Ghost Ship and Ship of the Line but I don't remember anything of the former and the latter's start was good but kinda weird with all the nautical stuff going on and the contradictions with Cause and Effect. It was nice to see Kelsey Grammar again but I much preferred when he turned up in Spectre just chilling with Scotty and Kirk at that reunion thing on Earth.

 

[Tallguy]

I liked Dreadnought, Battlestations! was good. (Although didn't both rely on the "The Federation is one crazy admiral away from total war" trope?)

I ADORED Final Frontier. That was back when TAS was solidly part of the "canon". It was when I had to go look stuff up to see why she was trying to make the Enterprise the first ship with warp drive. Best Destiny left me a little cold for some reason. (Someone else mentioned it. No, I can't explain it either.) (Somewhat off topic, I need to read Alan Dean Foster's Counter Clock Incident.)

I loved Ghost Ship. In the middle of (at the end of?) the first season of TNG it felt like really getting to know the TNG crew for the first time. I wish the show had taken her ideas about why Geordi's VISOR caused him pain. (Remember that?) And she had Wesley screw up and almost get everyone killed. Was that the book where Picard had to order evasive maneuvers and several civies got hurt? Ahhh, back when I read TNG books.

I actually liked the Great Starship race a lot.

I could NOT get into Ship of the Line, which surprised me. I expected it to hit on so many of her strong points but it just didn't grab me. Perhaps I should revisit.

One of my favorite Trek authors.

 

[Christopher]

I ADORED Final Frontier. That was back when TAS was solidly part of the "canon".

Not really. Even before the infamous '89 memo that allegedly "decanonized" TAS, its status was ambiguous, since not everyone had seen it and not everyone who had seen it was willing to accept it. There were plenty of earlier novels that disregarded it -- for instance, Yesterday's Son disregards "Yesteryear." It was really an open question, up to the individual writer or viewer to decide. (For instance, there's a note in the letter column one of DC's post-TWOK Trek comics where editor Bob Greenberger noted that he preferred to count TOS while writer Mike Barr preferred not to. Which must be why Arex & M'ress weren't added to the comic until after Len Wein took over the writing.)

 

[Cake Is Eternal]

Not really. Even before the infamous '89 memo that allegedly "decanonized" TAS, its status was ambiguous, since not everyone had seen it and not everyone who had seen it was willing to accept it. There were plenty of earlier novels that disregarded it -- for instance, Yesterday's Son disregards "Yesteryear." It was really an open question, up to the individual writer or viewer to decide. (For instance, there's a note in the letter column one of DC's post-TWOK Trek comics where editor Bob Greenberger noted that he preferred to count TOS while writer Mike Barr preferred not to. Which must be why Arex & M'ress weren't added to the comic until after Len Wein took over the writing.)

Hi Christopher, I wanted to tell you how much I am enjoying your book “The Face of the Unknown.” I love that you’re revisiting Balok and Bailey and the First Federation. It’s fascinating. I absolutely loved “Ex Machina” as well.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

My introduction to a new Trek message board was wandering into to say how much I had enjoyed a then-new release, "Double Helix: Red Sector", which I had just finished. Previously, I had loved all of Carey's stuff and I really liked that "Red Sector" had some great character work, a Spock and McCoy reunion and fun plot ironies - a but somehow I had missed that she supposedly always imposed her "political agenda" to all of her books, making them intolerable to so many readers?

My problem with Red Sector is not its "political agenda." I didn't mind the Heinleinian point, simplistic as it is, that she closed the book on -- "Freedom is never free." While I don't share Carey's libertarianism, which is an awkward fit for the Star Trek universe, I can accept it for the purposes of the stories she tells. Yes, it's weird to me to read a Kirk who extols the virtues of a frontier beyond the reach of the state in Wagon Train to the Stars, but then you see in later books in the New Earth sequence how completely fucked the Belle Terre colonists would be without a Starfleet ship nearby, so it kinda balances out.

My problem with Red Sector is it's a bad book. The parts of the book with the Enterprise-D crew, which is maybe fifty pages in a fairly long book, are weird -- Data fights Romulan ninjas! The parts of with the classic crew (Spock and McCoy) features those characters only in name; neither behaved in any way that I recognized. And the bulk of the book involved characters I never liked or cared about. Basically, it failed for me as a Star Trek novel. It never felt to me like a Star Trek story. I remember thinking there was the core of a decent idea in the book, and then it wasn't executed,

I'm glad you liked Red Sector and found something of value in it.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Not really. Even before the infamous '89 memo that allegedly "decanonized" TAS, its status was ambiguous, since not everyone had seen it and not everyone who had seen it was willing to accept it. There were plenty of earlier novels that disregarded it -- for instance, Yesterday's Son disregards "Yesteryear."

Yep. I once asked Janet Kagan why M'Ress didn't cameo in "Uhura's Song", when Sickbay was racing to resolve a unique felinoid health crisis. She apologised that she simply was not familiar with TAS.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yep. I once asked Janet Kagan why M'Ress didn't cameo in "Uhura's Song", when Sickbay was racing to resolve a unique felinoid health crisis. She apologised that she simply was not familiar with TAS.

I probably shouldn't admit this, but I'm not terribly well-versed in TAS either, which leads to similar moments. "Why didn't you reference X?"

"Um, who is X?"

But, yeah, I started writing TREK novels in the era when we weren't supposed cite TAS so I never got around to watching it -- and still tend to forget about it.

 

[Cake Is Eternal]

I probably shouldn't admit this, but I'm not terribly well-versed in TAS either, which leads to similar moments. "Why didn't you reference X?"

"Um, who is X?"

But, yeah, I started writing TREK novels in the era when we weren't supposed cite TAS so I never got around to watching it -- and still tend to forget about it.

TAS is a lot of fun. Pretty campy but they have some good stories. “Yesteryear” and “The Counterclock Incident” are my favorites.