Phase Two SUCKED?

[RobertScorpio]

I have read alot about the Phase Two series that eventually became TMP. I have the big book they put out about it a couple years ago. Loved all the unseen pictures and schematics..BUT...

The plots sucked. I read all of them, and I think, had this show gone on, it would have ran TREK into oblivion. And I think it also reveals the big problem with TMP. The writing of Phase Two scripts, and TMP to some degree, show little evolving from the 60s formula of TOS.

Could these issues have been ironed out? I don't think so. I believe the first season of TNG, which I think is pretty dismal, was pretty much Phase Two redressed. And, more importantly? Roddenberry, IMO, had lost his touch and PHASE TWO and first season of TNG are an example of that belief.

I posted this in General area because it wouldn't have been TOS, because Spock would not have been in it. So I posted it here..sorry if it is a stray post..

 

[USS KG5]

Well season two of TNG certainly had some phase two scripts re-written because of the strike at the time.

BUT - I dont think S1 did - it was weak because it was new, because of weak writing and because it was a sixties series struggling to adapt to the eighties...

 

[RobertScorpio]

The whole concept of TNG is TMP/Phase 2...Kirk/Picard...Riker/Decker...Troi/Ilya (and her relationship with Riker/Decker) Data/Xon....but the way the stories were told in s1/TNG was very dated. Some of the lesser episodes come from that season because, IMO, Roddenberry's writing (and production ideas) were still rooted in the 1960s

 

[Mysterion]

Phase II had the potential to be pretty good. Some of the synopses I've seen are pretty weak, admittedly, but I think the series could have developed inot something good.

And the two-part episode "Kitumba" that was written for Phase II could have been a true classic.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

"Kitumba" was the best of the bunch in terms of plotting. A better version of the Klingons than we eventually got.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Did you read the full script for Kitumba? I used to have it, but I think I deleted it. It's OK, but certainly not a classic. It is a legitimate two parter, though, which made it a bit ambitious by TOS standards (it helped to give it an epic feel). Still, if that episode would be the best, I'd have reservations about it as a whole).

 

[JoeZhang]

but where was my three-breasted character?

 

[Mysterion]

Alidar Jarok said:
Did you read the full script for Kitumba? I used to have it, but I think I deleted it. It's OK, but certainly not a classic. It is a legitimate two parter, though, which made it a bit ambitious by TOS standards (it helped to give it an epic feel). Still, if that episode would be the best, I'd have reservations about it as a whole).

Have them, read them.

Kind of hard to view them objectivley against the klingons we've got now. But, back in '78 it would've been (to quote Kor) glorious. There might be a couple parts that need polishing, but overall it's a good story IMO.

I'd really like to see a novelization of "Kitumba" either as a sort of alernate view of Klingons, or updated to fit the on-screen klingonicity of the last thirty years.

 

[A beaker full of death]

RobertScorpio said:
but the way the stories were told in s1/TNG was very dated.

Actually, that was the only good thing about that season. And it was far superior to the "storytelling" in the rest of the series. I've often said that TNG seasons 1 and 2 were the worst seasons of Star Trek - and the last seasons of Star Trek.

 

[Squiggy]

A beaker full of death said:

RobertScorpio said:
but the way the stories were told in s1/TNG was very dated.

Actually, that was the only good thing about that season. And it was far superior to the "storytelling" in the rest of the series. I've often said that TNG seasons 1 and 2 were the worst seasons of Star Trek - and the last seasons of Star Trek.

And then people started to "watch" Star Trek.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

We'll never know, really, whether Phase 2 would have been any good. You can't read plot synopsis (or even completed scripts) that were done well ahead of any production and draw conclusions about the overall quality of the TV series. Scripts are rewritten, punched up, rejected, etc., along the way as the show evolves. And there are other factors in play as well, such as acting, production, etc.

As others have stated, TNG started out somewhat weak but got a lot stronger as it went on. P2 may well have done the same.

 

[USS Mariner]

Starship Polaris said:
"Kitumba" was the best of the bunch in terms of plotting. A better version of the Klingons than we eventually got.

They are the Klingons we should've gotten.

 

[Harvey]

From the synopsis and the few scripts I've read, Phase II would have been slow out of the gate. The episodes wouldn't have been that strong, and it would have been a 60s series trying to survive in the 80s.

So, pretty much exactly like TNG in that regard. I don't think Phase II would have lasted, without a change in leadership.

 

[I am not Spock]

Phase II would not have lasted long, IMO.

Decker is basically just a younger Kirk, Xon is a Spock retread, and the scripts seem too much like the original series to have survived in the late 70s, early 80s. Audiences at that time didn't want 'hard SF' concepts. They had just seen Star Wars and they wanted 'action sci-fi'.

TNG in its first few seasons really did seem like the Phase II concept coming to fruition.

I agree, Kitumba would have made a great episode.

 

[votd]

What was different about the Khitumba Klingons? I take it we're not talking about a race with a code of honour.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I am not Spock said:
Xon is a Spock retread

Why? Because Xon had pointed ears? If anything, he's more of a young Sarek. Highly intelligent, very young, fully Vulcan, struggling to understand humanity since he has none of his own. How is that "a Spock retread"?

 

[JoeZhang]

votd said:
What was different about the Khitumba Klingons? I take it we're not talking about a race with a code of honour.

From Memory Alpha:

The episode "Kitumba" would have established a Klingon Empire which differs from the canon Klingon Empire in some notable respects.

* The home star of the Klingon Empire is orbited by two M-class planets, the innermost planet being the Sacred Planet of the Kitumba, while the second planet, the actual homeworld, is called Ultar. The canon homeworld of the Klingon Empire is called Qo'noS.
* Ultar and the Sacred Planet feature no defense systems since the Klingons believe in their invincibility.
* "Klingons" is not the name of the species. Only members of the warrior caste are called "Klingons". There are two further castes, the Technos, which is the caste of scientists and technicians, and the Subjects.
* The Klingon Empire is not ruled by the Klingon High Council and its Chancellor. There is a ceremonial head of state, the Kitumba, who is revered as a near-god and resides in reclusion on the Sacred Planet. All political and military authority lies with the Warlord, who resides on Ultar.
* The Klingon government in "Kitumba" would have been based on Imperial Japan, much like how the Romulan Empire was based on the Roman Empire.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I am not Spock said:
Phase II would not have lasted long, IMO.

The cards, certainly, were stacked against Phase: II. The Paramount network, Star Wars, no Bob Justman, and no D.C. Fontana; however, P:II had Jon Povill and Harold Livingston. Those two were able to put concrete the more ethereal ideas of Roddenberry, especially in regards to the "no conflict." Rather they saw it and interpreted it as being no soap opera-type conflict, where the tension comes from opposing perspectives on a given situation (much like TOS with the division between Kirk, Spock and McCoy). This was something TNG just made into a flat rule that everyone just got along without any disagreements.

It may have been a struggle, but P:II may still have survived.

Decker is basically just a younger Kirk, Xon is a Spock retread...

Well, Decker and Xon were both created to replace Kirk and Spock. Decker was created to eventually replace Kirk in the series, knowing that Shatner's salary would be difficult to meet over the long haul. Xon, however, was the opposite of Spock in many regards. Full-Vulcan but willing to try and emulate human behavior; whereas Spock being only half-Vulcan tried very hard not to show his human side.

If P:II had continued past it's first year, perhaps even during it's first, we would've seen a new trio of Decker, Xon and Illa. McCoy would probably become the wise, old man of the ship and a supporting player to those three. Or he would've been replaced completely by Chapel as the ship's doctor.

I'm also sure that those scripts had they been developed fully would've been more polished than the first-drafts and treatments that've been circulating over the years.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

You know, there was a moment, after the failure of Nemesis and Enterprise, that I was wishing Phase II had made it. I imagined a Trek timeline where there was only two, probably great series, no movies, no Berman/Braga-ized Trek, decent hardcore scifi scripts, and no "franchise fatigue". I thought it would be awesome to see more of the TMP era Trek characters, and see how the show would have evolved and changed. I was, for the most part, jaded with how uneven the films (the TOS and TNG films) have been, and with how little I cared about the modern Trek shows.

But then I realized that the Trek films helped expand the franchise beyond television. Without TMP, there would have likely been no Trek films, as I don't see them trying to put out a post-Phase II film, assuming the show lasted over three seasons. It simply would have either been too soon for a film, or the actors would have been too old to start a film franchise if they waited a decade. TNG also showed that Trek can be made without Kirk, Spock, and McCoy - something that would not have happened (at least not at that time) if Phase II had been made.

So Trek is probably better off without Phase II. However, as someone who enjoyed TMP, it's nice to imagine what it would have been like to see these characters in more stories.

 

[I am not Spock]

Trek history would have been very different if we got Phase II. We probably would only be talking about TOS and Phase II right now, for starters. The movies, TNG, and the other spin offs would not have happened, or if we did get spin-offs, they would probably be very different.

It's interesting to think what might have been.