Did Kirk command the Enterprise for a while after TMP?

[Pauln6]

Well, and as far as gaseous anomalies go, it doesn't exclude the possibility that the Excelsior also did some other things. And we don't know the specifics.

It's interesting that the Enterprise also had equipment for investigating gaseous anomalies. Must have been the fad in Starfleet in the early 2290s I guess

I think in the original draft the Excelsior was to use the equipment established in dialogue but it was decided that the Enterprise should be more heavily involved which is why you end up withe Enterprise having the same equipment and the daft scene where the 70 year old doctor is working on a photon torpedo instead of trained engineers.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think in the original draft the Excelsior was to use the equipment established in dialogue but it was decided that the Enterprise should be more heavily involved which is why you end up withe Enterprise having the same equipment and the daft scene where the 70 year old doctor is working on a photon torpedo instead of trained engineers.

The trained engineers aren't being paid as lead actors.

 

[Pauln6]

The trained engineers aren't being paid as lead actors.

That's probably why a novice navigator can end up as chief engineer. But what a missed opportunity for a celebrity cameo!

 

[Nerys Myk]

That's probably why a novice navigator can end up as chief engineer. But what a missed opportunity for a celebrity cameo!

And why landing parties and away teams include 50 to 100 percent of the senior staff.

 

[Pauln6]

And why landing parties and away teams include 50 to 100 percent of the senior staff.

Not so much in season one!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Not so much in season one!

I have to wonder if Starfleet cut Kirk's payroll budget and there were layoffs?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I’m not sure he was an “Academy Admiral” in TWOK. I figure he was still Chief of StarFleet Operations, this was simply the class he was mentoring.

I used to think that Kirk became the Commandant of Starfleet Academy between TMP and TWOK, but now I think that he either went back to being the Chief of Starfleet Operations or some similarly dull desk job. He's not terribly familiar with any of the cadets in TWOK outside of Spock's protégé Saavik and Scotty's nephew Peter Preston, both of whom he's presumably met before from the way he teases them. He asks Spock how his cadets will really react under pressure and is initially inclined to dismiss them as "children." Plus, if Kirk was actively involved in teaching cadets, I don't think he'd be as burned out and depressed as we see him at the beginning of TWOK.

All of this leads me to think that Kirk coming in to rate Spock's cadets, inspect the Enterprise, and join them for a three-week training cruise was a special, one-time event, and a part of Kirk's birthday celebration. He wasn't typically involved in the day-to-day of any of that stuff, but Spock and McCoy obviously picked up on the fact that their friend was hurting, and enlisted Sulu, Scotty, and Uhura to help them cheer Kirk up. (Chekov, being on the top secret mission of finding a suitable planet for the Genesis experiment, wasn't able to join and probably wasn't even able to receive a communiqué from Spock or McCoy.)

This is all one reason I really enjoyed Christopher Bennett's "The Higher Frontier". It's a post TMP story that goes with the idea that Kirk commanded the Enterprise for a number of years after TMP. And it covers how and why he took a promotion to Admiral yet again. He gets the Enterprise assigned to trainee duty, encourages Spock to take a promotion to captain and this stint as Admiral would be different than the last. First he would not be chief of Starfleet operations, so he won't be a 'desk-bound' paper pusher. He was made Commandant of Starfleet Academy this time. And he would also be a troubleshooter. When problems arise he would take the Enterprise on missions, with Spock as captain, and take care of problems as they arose.

That's pretty much what my friend Glenn Greenberg did in his Star Trek: The Untold Voyages mini series from Marvel Comics in 1998.

Novels go in that direction because they seem to think it is more interesting than telling stories about Kirk behind a desk. For me, I see no reason Kirk didn't continue as Chief of Starfleet Operations right up to TWOK. And that "we'll give you special missions, just take this promotion" comes from "The Lost Years" series of books, IIRC.

Yeah, the "Troubleshooter" concept comes from J.M. Dillard's The Lost Years, although it doesn't jibe with Decker's line in TMP about Kirk not logging a single star hour in the last 2 1/2 years. Again, I think in the world of ST, Kirk didn't have a terribly interesting career between TOS and TMP, and for much of the gap between TMP and TWOK.

But what a missed opportunity for a celebrity cameo!

STVI already had celebrity cameos.

 

[yotsuya]

What do we think of 'The Motion Picture' novelization by Gene Roddenberry?

In it he says that Kirk took command of the Enterprise 'almost' nine years earlier, the five year mission began eight years ago, and it ended three years ago with Kirk in charge of Starfleet Operations for 2.5 years and the Enterprise refit taking 18 months.

At least in Roddenberry's head, the events of 'The Motion Picture' occur only three years after the end of the five year mission.

2273 - 9 = 2264
2273 - 8 = 2265
2273 - 3 = 2270

I like the way that fits. I have been mulling over what Spock said about dates and it indicates that Kirk was in command a while before the five year mission. Maybe the end of a similar mission under PIke. A trial run so to speak, before being assigned a full five year mission. I see the five year mission as a standard deployment in the 23rd century for exploration starships. So what I'm thinking is that a year or year and a half before the previous deployment was over, Pike got promoted to fleet captain and hand picked Kirk to replace him. This disagrees with the Okuda's timeline and with Memory Alpha, but makes sense when you try to align how long Spock served with Pike vs. how long ago The Cage was. Kirk being in command before the five year mission makes more sense. Then 5 years (I consider the series the first three years and then there is room for the animated series and/or any of the fan continuations you want to add). Pushing back to 2264 or even 2263, makes the 30 years mentioned in Generations less rounded. I think it just fits better.

Thanks for digging this up.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Inspired by my previous post about what Gene Roddenberry thought about the placement of the five-year mission and 'the Motion Picture', I decided to go through all seven movie novelizations and see what sort of chronological clues they would provide about Kirk's post-'TMP' career.
I used the 2270 date given in the Voyager episode 'Q2' as my ending point for the five-year mission and worked backwards and forwards from there.
I could have used the 'Spaceflight Chronology' dates, or the FASA dating system, or even the ones used by the Okuda's in their chronology, but I went with 2270 because it was easier to work with.
What I came up with is interesting, since the authors were going off of early versions of the scripts, there were some changes from page to screen; which results in a different career trajectory for Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise.

2241 | - Carol Marcus is born (Just over forty years old – ‘The Wrath Of Khan’)
2261 | - Saavik is born (Twenty-one years ago – ‘The Wrath Of Khan’)
2262 | - Enterprise is twenty years old (Admiral Morrow – ‘The Search For Spock’)
| - Uhura graduates from Starfleet Academy (Uhura is a ‘twenty-year’ space veteran – ‘The Search For Spock’)
| - David Marcus is born (Twenty years old – ‘The Wrath Of Khan’)
2263 | - Kirk first meets Spock (‘Nearly’ twenty years ago – ‘The Search For Spock’)
| - Nimbus III ‘The Planet of Galactic Peace’ is settled (Twenty years ago – ‘The Final
Frontier’)
2264 | - Kirk takes command of the Enterprise (Nine years ago – ‘TMP’. Thirty years ago –
‘Generations’)
2265 | - The Five-Year Mission begins (Eight years ago – ‘TMP’)
2266 | - Leonard McCoy becomes the Enterprise’s CMO (27 years ago – ‘The
Undiscovered Country’)
2267 | - Space Seed (15 years ago – ‘The Wrath Of Khan’)
2268 | - Peter Preston is born (Age 14 – ‘The Wrath Of Khan’)
|
2270 | - The Five-Year Mission ends (Voyager – ‘Q2’. Three years ago – ‘TMP’)
2271 | - Saavik is rescued from Hellguard (Eleven years ago – age 10. ‘The Wrath Of
Khan’)
|
2273 | - The Motion Picture
| - The Wrath Of Khan (Kirk returns to the Admiralty – Immediately after ‘TMP’)
|
|
|
2278 | - Cause And Effect (Maroon colored uniforms)
|
|
|
2282 | - Generations (Kirk meets Demora Sulu at the Academy. Twelve years ago)
| - The Wrath Of Khan (Kirk’s birthday. Kirk and Khan have not seen each other in
‘fifteen years’. Sulu is promoted to Captain of the Excelsior. Death of Peter
Preston)
| - The Search For Spock (The Enterprise is twenty years old. Uhura is a ‘twenty-
year’ space veteran. Death of David Marcus)
| - Death of David Marcus (Eleven years ago – ‘The Undiscovered Country’)
| - The Voyage Home (3 months after ‘The Search For Spock’)
2283 | - The Final Frontier (Peter Preston died ‘roughly’ a year ago. David Marcus has
been dead a year. Nimbus III was settled twenty years ago)
| - The Undiscovered Country (Kirk visits Carol Marcus about the death of David
Marcus. A year after his death. Ten years before ‘The Undiscovered Country’)
2284 | - The Undiscovered Country (Sulu is given command of the Excelsior – ‘Nearly’ two
years after ‘The Wrath Of Khan’. Nine years before ‘The Undiscovered Country’)
2285 | - Kirk retires from Starfleet and meets Antonia while out riding horses. (Nine years
ago – ‘Generations’)
|
2287 | - Kirk’s dog Jake (Butler) dies. Kirk tells Antonia he’s returning to Starfleet. (Seven
years ago – ‘Generations’)

|
|
2290 | - Sulu and the Excelsior begin a mission mapping gaseous anomalies (Three years ago – ‘The Undiscovered Country’)
|
|
2293 | - The Undiscovered Country (David Marcus has been dead eleven years. Sulu has
been Captain of the Excelsior ‘nearly’ ten years. McCoy has been the Enterprise
CMO for twenty-seven years)
2294 | - Generations – Prologue (One year later. Kirk first met Demora Sulu twelve years
ago. First Enterprise in 30 years without James T. Kirk in command. Kirk’s dog
Jake (Butler) died seven years ago. Kirk met Antonia nine years ago.

 

[Maurice]

I think in the original draft the Excelsior was to use the equipment established in dialogue but it was decided that the Enterprise should be more heavily involved which is why you end up withe Enterprise having the same equipment and the daft scene where the 70 year old doctor is working on a photon torpedo instead of trained engineers.

Shooting script:

41 INT. R DECK CORRIDOR

leaving the Enterprise Science Labs...​

GORKON
Your research laboratory is most
impressive...

KIRK
Starfleet's been charting and
cataloging planetary atmospheres.
All vessels are equipped with
chemical analytic sensors...

​

Not sure what early drafts said. I don't have many drafts of TUC.

 

[jackoverfull]

2262 | - Enterprise is twenty years old (Admiral Morrow – ‘The Search For Spock’)

of course we know that Morrow was just wrong on this one.

2271 | - Saavik is rescued from Hellguard (Eleven years ago – age 10. ‘The Wrath Of
Khan’)

wait, Hellguard was in one of the novelizations?!

 

[Pauln6]

of course we know that Morrow was just wrong on this one.

wait, Hellguard was in one of the novelizations?!

It's mentioned in more than one but it's been decades since I've read them.

 

[Mister Spock]

My interpretation was always that Captain Kirk commanded the Enterprise between 2265 and 2270 and then returned for a second five year mission from 2273 to 2278. When Kirk retired in 2278, command was passed to Captain Spock who took the ship out for another five year mission of his own between 2279 to 2284.

Kirk returned to Starfleet in 2284 as an instructor at Starfleet Academy, coinciding with Spock taking a similar posting and the Enterprise being repurposed as a training vessel.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Kirk returned to Starfleet in 2284 as an instructor at Starfleet Academy, coinciding with Spock taking a similar posting and the Enterprise being repurposed as a training vessel.

Admiral is a pretty high rank for an instructor. I could see that he would want to keep a close eye on the Enterprise and his former shipmates, but I don't see him as an instructor at this point.

 

[Timo]

Commandant, more probably. Not dealing with the students all that much, except through Instructor Spock. So the visit to the simulator would be a rare treat, part of the birthday celebrations. And the presence of McCoy and the others there would also be related to the birthday.

Rear Admiral is a fine rank for SFA Commandant in the TNG era, FWIW. It's also something offered to Captain Picard at the conclusion of his tour of duty as a line officer. Might be a standard reward for heroes, with Kirk getting a bit more in TMP, letting his bosses down with his selfish antics, and getting just the standard thing the second time around.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

I don't see a second five year mission for Admiral Kirk on the Enterprise. He may have arranged to have it as his flagship as Starfleet's Chief of Operations to conduct off-Earth business in that role.

On an alternate route with no canon evidence and probably unlikely, we have seen Commodores have command of Starships, so maybe he took a rank reduction to Commodore and took command again.

 

[STEPhon IT]

of course we know that Morrow was just wrong on this one.

wait, Hellguard was in one of the novelizations?!

Why would Morrow be wrong? He's only saying what's on the page and as for production writing, why would Hollywood even care to do their homework from a failed TV series??? For all they care, TWOK is where Star Trek started and they're starting from there.

 

[Timo]

Because "we know" Morrow was wrong, as stated. We're not Paramount, and we're not watching from the eighties. And Morrow is not an actor but a character, so he's not bound by scripts but relies on his own judgement. Which "we" know is wrong.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[diankra]

Because "we know" Morrow was wrong, as stated. We're not Paramount, and we're not watching from the eighties. And Morrow is not an actor but a character, so he's not bound by scripts but relies on his own judgement. Which "we" know is wrong.

Timo Saloniemi

Best explanation is that Morrow is referring to the refit, and rounding up a lot (maybe counting from the design, not the physical rebuild).

 

[jackoverfull]

Best explanation is that he just said something he didn’t mean. Real people get numbers wrong all the time, even when they actually know the right numbers.