Military themes in the Star Trek universe.

[Orphalesion]

As tired as this topic is but...

There's also the fact that by the 24th century the concept of what a "military" does simply has shifted. There was an Apocalyptic World War and several centuries of expanding into interstellar space and meeting with other civilization. So a military in 24th century human culture might just exactly be what Starfleet is/does; a organization that in equal parts fulfills combat, research,exploration, diplomatic and emergency/disaster-relief related activities.

 

[Reverend]

I'd argue it's a type of force, a Star Force if you will, one that has giant fleets of StarShips at it's disposal with numerous officers to execute orders passed down the chain of command.

The ability to apply force does not make them a force anymore than a doctor's ability to kill you in any number of ways makes them a killer. Purpose and intent matter.
As for the rest of that, I've already addressed this point and have no intention of repeating myself.

It's not misleading. The Federation has engaged in wars, and Starfleet was the entity that fought them.

Starfleet has been *subject* to wars, attacks and skirmishes. There's a difference.

Insisting that the Starfleet vessels who fight these wars are not warships just seems like a word game.

Not at all. A warship is a ship of war. War is what they're for. Klingons, The Dominion, the Romulans, the Breen; they all build warships. With rare exception, Starfleet does not. They build starships. They're meant to explore the stars with the most advanced technology available to fulfil any number of mission requirements including but not limited to planetary surveying, colony support, medial aid, pure research and yes, when needed; defence.
The distinction has nothing to do with whether or not they have squash courts, bars or soft furnishings. It's a matter of design intent.

To look at it from the other end of the spectrum; the Borg also do not make warships. They make more Borg, whether it's drones or cubes they're designed to remove obstructions and assimilate to make even more Borg. So yeah, not everything with shields and a weapons system is by definition a warship.

Then its leaders should not be issuing orders for subordinates to follow without question.

"following orders without question"? Citation needed.
Also, as previously stated, a hierarchy doesn't define a military force, it just organizes one.
But OK, fine if we're going to be pedantic about this point: are you suggesting that the crews of cargo container ships are military? They have a Captain, do they not? Orders are expected to be followed, yes? And how about a hospital emergency room? Nurses are expected to obey the orders of the attending physician, yes? Or how about literally anywhere you've ever worked? Ever had a boss that you could simply ignore and NOT get fired?

"Has person in charge" and "people need to do as they're told" are hardly the sole purview of military forces.

 

[Nyotarules]

The ability to apply force does not make them a force anymore than a doctor's ability to kill you in any number of ways makes them a killer. Purpose and intent matter.
As for the rest of that, I've already addressed this point and have no intention of repeating myself.

Starfleet has been *subject* to wars, attacks and skirmishes. There's a difference.

Not at all. A warship is a ship of war. War is what they're for. Klingons, The Dominion, the Romulans, the Breen; they all build warships. With rare exception, Starfleet does not. They build starships. They're meant to explore the stars with the most advanced technology available to fulfil any number of mission requirements including but not limited to planetary surveying, colony support, medial aid, pure research and yes, when needed; defence.
The distinction has nothing to do with whether or not they have squash courts, bars or soft furnishings. It's a matter of design intent.

To look at it from the other end of the spectrum; the Borg also do not make warships. They make more Borg, whether it's drones or cubes they're designed to remove obstructions and assimilate to make even more Borg. So yeah, not everything with shields and a weapons system is by definition a warship.

"following orders without question"? Citation needed.
Also, as previously stated, a hierarchy doesn't define a military force, it just organizes one.
But OK, fine if we're going to be pedantic about this point: are you suggesting that the crews of cargo container ships are military? They have a Captain, do they not? Orders are expected to be followed, yes? And how about a hospital emergency room? Nurses are expected to obey the orders of the attending physician, yes? Or how about literally anywhere you've ever worked? Ever had a boss that you could simply ignore and NOT get fired?

"Has person in charge" and "people need to do as they're told" are hardly the sole purview of military forces.

Citation needed the words 'Chain of command'

Yes, in the U.K one does not get fired at the whim off an employer, legislation makes sure of that.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

The ability to apply force does not make them a force anymore than a doctor's ability to kill you in any number of ways makes them a killer. Purpose and intent matter.
As for the rest of that, I've already addressed this point and have no intention of repeating myself.

I concur, that's why I've always treated StarFleet as a "Hybrid Organization" like my earlier posts stated.

They're the Ultimate "Multi-Tool" or "Tool WareHouse".

They have the right tool for the job if necessary.

The Military Aspect is only a subset of it's many branches.

It's not afraid or ashamed of it's Military Aspect, but it's not the only thing it has, it has other aspects as well when it comes to problem solving, flexibility is key.

Not at all. A warship is a ship of war. War is what they're for. Klingons, The Dominion, the Romulans, the Breen; they all build warships. With rare exception, Starfleet does not. They build starships. They're meant to explore the stars with the most advanced technology available to fulfil any number of mission requirements including but not limited to planetary surveying, colony support, medial aid, pure research and yes, when needed; defence.
The distinction has nothing to do with whether or not they have squash courts, bars or soft furnishings. It's a matter of design intent.

I concur, the fact that the Galaxy Class offers so many tools and facilities that aren't a "Purely Military" function shows you the versatility of StarFleet design along with capabilities to execute missions that aren't "Purely Military" in nature. That's the awesome flexiblity of the StarFleet we know and love.

To look at it from the other end of the spectrum; the Borg also do not make warships. They make more Borg, whether it's drones or cubes they're designed to remove obstructions and assimilate to make even more Borg. So yeah, not everything with shields and a weapons system is by definition a warship.

Well, the Borg organizes by 3D Polygonal Shapes.
So they make more Cube / Sphere / Diamond / etc other shaped Borg vessels for whatever purpose they deem.

 

[fireproof78]

I concur, that's why I've always treated StarFleet as a "Hybrid Organization" like my earlier posts stated.

They're the Ultimate "Multi-Tool" or "Tool WareHouse".

They have the right tool for the job if necessary.

The Military Aspect is only a subset of it's many branches.

It's not afraid or ashamed of it's Military Aspect, but it's not the only thing it has, it has other aspects as well when it comes to problem solving, flexibility is key.

Schrodinger's military.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Schrodinger's military.

It gets the job done and has kept the UFP safe for quite a while.
It can be improved upon IMO, but that's another discussion for another day.

 

[TopperHenly]

On the subject of whether Starfleet is military organisation or not, I think it's purpose is the same as my understanding of Clauswitz's idea that war is a continuation of political policy.

The Federation has a political goal of seeking to expand its sphere of influence through soft power. It does this by trade, scientific exchanges and security. It also projects this soft power through the Prime Directive where it does not interfere in the internal matters of sovereign governments of planets it gets involved in.

As it's political goal of providing security for it's members is security, it can only provide it through force. Force doesn't always mean simply knocking down things. The willingness to use force is as useful as using force itself. The Federation was in effect involved in a Cold war with the Romulans which involved mostly shows of force with increased manoeuvres involving starships on the borders of the Neutral zone as acts of deterrence against aggression. This held and uneasy peace and would only be possible if the Federation was serious of using force when necessary.

It is possible for Starfleet to be both a military and peaceful organisation, simply because political policy of the Federation dictates it. In normal times, it would be geared towards more non-military aims with the Federations goal of expansion and consolidation. However, Starfleet would become more militaristic when the Federation dictated it as we saw in the Dominion War where it's very existence was threatened.

The bottom line is that Starfleet is what the Federation dictates it to be.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Starfleet is not a military force,

Politically, no; Legally, debatable (it's can certainly be "militarised in terms of war" ala the USCG); Practically, defence is a "(minor) provenance of a starship captain" (from the same scene that started the whole modern debate) and as in common with several real world countries, the "not a military" organisation does "military" if needed in the absence of a dedicated military*.

or a police force,

Given that Starfleet personnel, including non-security officers, wear badges as a "symbol of office", carry sidearms, and can arrest people for criminal offences (per Let He Who is Without Sin) then IMO that's even harder to sustain. YMMV.

or any kind of force at all. It's a Starfleet.

Uh... you do realise that "force" just means "organisation" or at most "uniformed, hierarchical armed organisation" which regardless of whether it's military, navy, police... or indeed all of them... it is incontrovertible that Starfleet is a uniformed, hierarchical armed organisation.

* Which in common with pre-WWII Western definitions is mostly "doesn't have a standing army" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces
QUOTE="Reverend, post: 13582810, member: 1457"

 

[Henoch]

But learning how to fall itself has alot of key uses in not hurting yourself in a worst case scenario should you fall. It's not a obvious thing to learn, but it's something that should be taught because if you fall in the wrong way, you could serverely injure yourself or break something at a in opportune moment and that could be the end of you, or your mission.

And yet it's the first thing you should be taught. It was the first thing I was taught in both stage combat and martial arts.

Yes, and the first thing Kirk taught Charlie was to correctly fall. Good job, Kirk.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x02hd/charliexhd318.jpg

 

[J.T.B.]

Starfleet has been *subject* to wars, attacks and skirmishes. There's a difference.

I used the word "engaged," and it is correct. They don't just say "well, we don't fight wars" and give up. They fight wars.

Not at all. A warship is a ship of war. War is what they're for. Klingons, The Dominion, the Romulans, the Breen; they all build warships. With rare exception, Starfleet does not. They build starships. They're meant to explore the stars with the most advanced technology available to fulfil any number of mission requirements including but not limited to planetary surveying, colony support, medial aid, pure research and yes, when needed; defence.

"With rare exception" means they do build warships, then. And the rest of the time, apparently, they have non-warships which are perfectly capable of fighting in wartime action. If they are not designed for that capability, it is a truly wonderful coincidence that they are able to function well in that unintended role. As I said, it's a word game. What's more interesting to me would to be a look at why the Federation came to adopt this obvious fiction.

But OK, fine if we're going to be pedantic about this point: are you suggesting that the crews of cargo container ships are military? They have a Captain, do they not? Orders are expected to be followed, yes? And how about a hospital emergency room? Nurses are expected to obey the orders of the attending physician, yes? Or how about literally anywhere you've ever worked? Ever had a boss that you could simply ignore and NOT get fired?

None of those examples are comparable. A civilian disobeying an employer is not a criminal offense. A civilian can be fired for disobeying a superior, but they can't be imprisoned. A civilian has rights under employment law and recourse to civil courts.

"Has person in charge" and "people need to do as they're told" are hardly the sole purview of military forces.

But setting up a separate legal system to that end is.

 

[Farscape One]

Regarding a previous post about ensign department heads sharing quarters on the Enterprise-D...

If Ensign Kim, as a department head of a much smaller ship, can have his own quarters, then certainly an ensign department head of a Galaxy class ship can. Assuming Ro was indeed the head for navigation/conn, she almost certainly had her own quarters.


And regarding the size of the Galaxy class and the need for more officers...

Remember, Geordi said about 90% of everything done on the ship is computer controlled and automatic. It already has 1,000 officers, specialists, and family members aboard. I think it has the right amount of people.

 

[Deks]

I

"With rare exception" means they do build warships, then. And the rest of the time, apparently, they have non-warships which are perfectly capable of fighting in wartime action. If they are not designed for that capability, it is a truly wonderful coincidence that they are able to function well in that unintended role. As I said, it's a word game. What's more interesting to me would to be a look at why the Federation came to adopt this obvious fiction.

Starfleet ships are highly modular... Meaning they can be adapted to different functions depending on mission requirements (but standard configuration usually comes with powerful shields and weapons - which don't detract from the point its a ship of exploration).
This is why even though they aren't designed to be warships, they would be perfectly capable of fighting in wars... Because they can be modified for that function if the need arises (albeit for wars... existing/standard configuration may undergo a few modifications to make it better at it - such as what Jellico did when he was on board Enterprise-D while Picard was away briefly).

Looking at the Defiant for example... That ship simply sported newer technology (which found it's way into other SF ships)
Otherwise it was unremarkable. New yes, so its going to sport newest forms of technologies (which again will go into other ships when its their time to be upgraded).

You think a Galaxy class cannot be adapted with same weapons firepower output of the Defiant through regular phasers and better shields for example? Of course it can.
Starships regularly undergo upgrades as time goes on... a lot of the upgrades can be done in the field, and some of it is done is spacedock if a ship returns ahead of schedule - though to be fair, the computer could be set to automate this process entirely via transporters, replicators, tractor beams and antigrav fields fairly easily.

Remember the USS Lakota? That was an 80 year old Excelsior class ship which was upgraded with modern technology and ended up rivaling the Defiant (but was probably faster than the Defiant when it came to warp speed - actually when you think about it, the Defiant was really slow compared to most other ships - and it was one of the limitations Starfleet will need to correct - maybe equip it with more powerful/adaptive structural integrity fields).

Also, technically, if the Lakota was given ablative armor like the Defiant, the Defiant would have been disabled as opposed to that fight reaching a standstill.

My point is that a Starfleet ship can fulfill a role it's given if modified accordingly because of the modularity it has (however, we've seen time and again that Starfleet ships come in a standard configuration which makes them fairly adequate for any number of tasks... think of it as a 'baseline' which the crew then continually improve upon - similar to what was done on Voyager).

It's not a military vessel though. Primary purpose is exploration, discovery and diplomacy.
Defense and offense only when necessary and only if there is no other choice... But I don't think defense/offense is an excuse to label it military when it's a function that Starfleet doesn't like to employ and is there to increase the chances of survival when it comes to space travel (phasers and torpedoes/ shields are frequently used as precision tools for scientific purpose).
Sure, Starfleet also employs protection/defense of Federation space, but that's not unusual for such an organisation (especially when its surrounded by potentially unfriendly species).

Having a ship without shields or adequate hull resiliency/armor leaves the ship susceptible to being ripped apart by an anomaly (something that Starfleet frequently encounters) or potentially hostile alien vessel.

 

[The Wormhole]

Assuming Ro was indeed the head for navigation/conn,

There's no indication she was. If she were, she was hardly ever on duty. Even in the fifth season, where the majority of her episodes are, Ro only had six appearances. TNG seemed to realize after Wesley left they had no need to keep the helm staffed by a regular speaking role.

 

[Farscape One]

"Conundrum" had her as 'helm officer'. Granted, it was a convenience of the episode itself because she was in it, but I can see it being a possibility.

It's possible she was given the night shift for the majority of her duty shifts. Given how the crew didn't like her being there to begin with, it makes sense the night shift was assigned to her for a while until things cooled down as far as other crew are concerned. Less crew, less friction. Hell, she may have even requested it, given how private she tended to be. Additionally, this could have been a further test by Picard to see just how far Ro could be trusted. It's one thing to have someone under you working while you are there, but the real test of faith is them working when you are not around.

Plus, Troi could have given Picard a recommendation for that position after the events of "Disaster". Ro made good points during that crisis... it was luck that worked for Troi there. She even acknowledged that Ro could easily have been right at the end.

 

[Tenacity]

Actual navy ships do have shipboard bars and lounges.

where was the bar on the tos enterprise? or the defiant? or the voyager? only one of these had a holodeck.

my understanding is that when meal are not being eaten, modern day naval vessels mess rooms are lounges, and cruisers and carriers do have lounges.

A military is a bunch of people who's purpose is to kill other people. That's the beginning, middle and end of it.

and respond to natural disasters, support Antarctica research stations, prevent wars through their mere presence, conduct medical research.

it was the us army that discovered chemo-theropy.

historically the military does whatever little chore they're assigned to do. which is a nice description of starfleet.

For Starfleet, violence is the absolute LAST recourse

during the dominion war you're saying that in each and every encounter with the jemhadar starfleet held their fire until other multiple options were tried first?

bullshit.

". It explicitly doesn't even "believe" in warships.

but does expicitly believe in equipping their peaceful exploration ships with weapons that could level half a continent.

an Apocalyptic World War and several centuries of expanding into interstellar space and meeting with other civilization.

travel to far away exotic places.
meet new and interesting people.
and then kill them.

Starfleet has been *subject* to wars, attacks and

starflleet has been SENT to war, SENT to attack the federations opponents

, Starfleet does not. They build starships.

and equips those starships with weapons of mass destruction. what's the equalvent explosive yield of a photon torpedo in mega-tonnes?

in the U.K one does not get fired at the whim off an employer,

hmm, and does that same employer have the option of court martialing that employee?

; Legally, debatable

not being a military, what is starfleet legal footing in killing "foreign nationals" and firing upon foreign warships that the federation is not at war with?

not being a military, why was a heavily armed starfleet vessel sent to a sovereign world to establish a "treaty port?"

feel free to look up the term "treaty port."

You think a Galaxy class cannot be adapted with same weapons firepower output of the Defiant

most likely the existing fire power of the galaxy class exceeded the fire power of the defiant.

 

[nightwind1]

When I was learning Kaijukenbo as a kid, that wasn't the first thing we were taught, it was somewhere in the middle at more advanced stages.

Kaijukenbo? Is that fighting giant monsters with swords and staves?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Kaijukenbo? Is that fighting giant monsters with swords and staves?

No, that's the Ultraman or Super Sentai Japanese TV/Movie franchises you're thinking of.

Kajukenbo is a hybrid martial art from Hawaii. The name Kajukenbo is a combination of the various arts from which its style is derived: KA for Karate, JU for Judo and Jujutsu, KEN for Kenpo and BO for Boxing (Kajukenbo)

 

[Deks]

most likely the existing fire power of the galaxy class exceeded the fire power of the defiant.

The USS Odyssey was unable to fend off 3 Jem'Hadaar attack ships.
Riker's transporter twin mentioned in the episode 'Defiant' the following:

"RIKER: Running the plasma conduit through the primary phaser coupling has almost doubled your phaser power. Doesn't that cut into your warp drive efficiency?
KIRA: Not at all. In fact, it's thirty percent more efficient."

I'd imagine that because it was a newer ship, the Defiant got these modifications after the Odyssey... and as unfortunate as the loss of the Odyssey was, its possible that the runabouts did acquire some extra sensor data during that encounter which helped improving the effectiveness of weapons.

The Defiant was specifically built to fight and defeat the Borg, so it had more adaptive technology in it, and I'd imagine that some of these updates simply didn't reach the Odyssey before it was sent to the GQ (which, unfortunately, we DID see occur in Trek - some ships don't even undergo upgrades until they are back at spacedock - but the rescue mission for Sisko etc. was assembled hastily so its possible that it was unexpected and there was no time).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

and equips those starships with weapons of mass destruction. what's the equalvent explosive yield of a photon torpedo in mega-tonnes?

According to the TNG Technical Manual FWIW, the standard photon torpedo was 1.5 kgs of antimatter which assuming 100% conversion equals ~64MT. VOY-era torpedoes may have a yield of over 500MT (200 "isotons" v 25 "isotons")

not being a military, what is starfleet legal footing in killing "foreign nationals" and firing upon foreign warships that the federation is not at war with?

not being a military, why was a heavily armed starfleet vessel sent to a sovereign world to establish a "treaty port?"

feel free to look up the term "treaty port."

Honestly, we don't know that the answer to that is, however it is worth noting that the USCG, which can be militarised but de jure is a law enforcement and safety organisation, would have the authority to do most of those items.

YMMV.

 

[nightwind1]

According to the TNG Technical Manual FWIW, the standard photon torpedo was 1.5 kgs of antimatter which assuming 100% conversion equals ~64MT. VOY-era torpedoes may have a yield of over 500MT (200 "isotons" v 25 "isotons")



Honestly, we don't know that the answer to that is, however it is worth noting that the USCG, which can be militarised but de jure is a law enforcement and safety organisation, would have the authority to do most of those items.

YMMV.

Former USCG Petty Officer here. The USCG IS military, NOT "can be militarized". At least that's what my DD-214 says.