Spoilers ST Discovery - Starships and Technology Season Three SPOILER Discussion

[Timo]

How so? TNG had Klingons, Kirk references, Spock in person, and an Enterprise. DS9 had Klingons, Kirk and Spock references, a Kirk and Spock appearance, and an Enterprise visit or a couple. VOY had Klingons and, eventually, multiple Kirk and Enterprise references.

ENT keeled over before they could do a Kirk/Spock/Enterprise nostalgia episode, rather proving the point: never ever leave that later than your third season!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[NCC-73515]

When did Kirk and Spock first show up in TNG, when did they and the Enterprise first show up in DS9 and VOY? And how did they do before and after?

 

[Timo]

Kirk along with his ship was name-dropped in "The Naked Now", right off the bat. Spock graciously waited in the shadows till "Unification", but the three-out-of-four condition had been met long before that. This in a show that was conceptually intended to be a break away from Kirk, Spock, the Enterprise and the Klingons... Boy did that decision get reversed.

DS9 went Klingon after the traditional two aimless seasons, and went Klingon big time, arguably saving the show. VOY did not dare even launch without them. DS9 does its first Kirk/Spock reference in "Crossover", towards the end of S2. And VOY goes Spock in "Alliances", mid-S2.

Whether any of this is actually related to the phenomenon of Trek shows "finding their footing" no sooner than S3 is the fun thing to speculate on. All of them reinvented themselves at that point, with introduction of new main baddies or dropping of old ones, and S3 also saw cast changes that would last for the rest of the run. The going rate for seven-season shows in the 1990s? I have no idea.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[NCC-73515]

Ah, so Naked Now improved that season greatly, got it.
And DS9's improvements were not because of the Dominion, or the other character arcs, but because Kirk and Spock were mentioned once. Alright. Otherwise the show would've been canceled, I'm sure.
VOY didn't launch without Kirk, Spock, and the Enterprise?
So you seriously think that if you take out Naked Now and Unification, TNG is bad? If you take out Way of the Warrior, Crossover, and Trials, DS9 is bad? And VOY would also be worse if you take out Alliances?

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

A couple quick observations on 3x03:

- Thinking about the geography of where B&B have been adventuring, they mention having been to Donatu VII. Assuming this is the same system as Donatu V (and not another one named for the same guy, like Wolf 359), then they couldn't be THAT far from familiar Federation space. Donatu V is/was known as a Klingon-held world from the 2240s to the 2370s, as referenced in assorted TOS, DS9 and even a DSC episode. It's possible Donatu VII was relatively close, but STILL far enough away from Earth that Burnham couldn't simply go there.

- On the plus side, this DOES jive with Burnham's insinuation that Book has a whole new quadrant to mess around in, as TECHNICALLY Donatu V is in Beta Quadrant, albeit not TOO Beta Quadrant.

- The Discovery dilithium bay (sic) extracts a crystal from storage, then lasers it in half before plopping it in a handy container. If we're going by older TOS fandom, the general concept is that back in that day is that dilithium was a power source AND an antimatter reaction regulator; you WOULD need a bay full of dilithium to get far. But by the time of TNG a crystal the size of Book's new one would be enough to moderate the reaction of a Galaxy class ship for years, AND those would be synthetic to begin with. By Voyager's time dilithium would be a hot commodity again, perhaps owing to the lack of refineries or that the real stuff just couldn't be beat.

- The Discovery Ready Room continues to evolve. Here the large wooden table, seen smashed in the first episode, continues its smashed-ness; however the low tables and chairs on the other side of the room are strewn in an early scene and cleaned up in a following one. By the time Saru moves in, a new table has replaced Pike's desk, and what looks like the table from Lorca's ready room has been added in place of the old wooden one.

- Similarly odd, before the EDF folks pop onto the ship, Burnham drags Book to what would be her lab; but when we next see them they're in someone's quarters getting changed. Did she use the other door in her lab to sneak away from some reason? Not trusting of the turbolifts?

- Also, when Burnham tells Book to get changed, they're BOTH already wearing the familiar blue trousers. :P

Mark

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If we're going by older TOS fandom, the general concept is that back in that day is that dilithium was a power source AND an antimatter reaction regulator; you WOULD need a bay full of dilithium to get far. But by the time of TNG a crystal the size of Book's new one would be enough to moderate the reaction of a Galaxy class ship for years, AND those would be synthetic to begin with. By Voyager's time dilithium would be a hot commodity again, perhaps owing to the lack of refineries or that the real stuff just couldn't be beat.

IMO, dilithium was the reaction regulator that converted the injection of Deuterium & Anti-Deuterium into EP (Electro-Plasma). The problem is that for quite a while, they didn't have Re-Crystalization, ergo the Dilithium gradually wears down and that's why they need giant stock piles.

In automotive analogies, think of the Dilithium Crystal to be similar to the Combustion Chamber of a Internal Combustion Engine. But instead of mechanical Work coming out of a crank shaft to move a automobile, you get Electro Plasma that can be shunted with lots of energy to across the EPS (Electro-Plasma System) to any major system you need.

Energy Weapons, Shields, Warp Drive, Sensors, Computers, Life Support, etc.

By TNG era, everybody had Re-Crystalization and has had it for over 70+ years including refinements to the tech.
Even then, Re-Crystalization probably only slowed down the Dilithium degradation process, but didn't stop it.

By Voyager's time, Voyager was in the Delta Quadrant and they probably didn't have a full supply of everything they need for operation at years away from StarFleet. They were expected to be back at a StarFleet base for final fitment of various stuff next week, then the CareTaker threw them to the other side of the Galaxy into the Delta Quadrant, so they were probably running on a limited supply, and out in the middle of no-where with no allies, who knows what can happen to their precious Dilithium.

Don't forget they found a unique "Higher Grade" form of Dilithium that allowed a shuttle to hit Warp 10. The knowledge of the crystal's lattice structure can be incredibly important discovery for Synthetic Dilithium manufacturing of higher grades to attain higher warp values.

 

[DEWLine]

Does anyone have a screencap of the moment on the bridge with that map of Trill on one of the transparent screens?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Does anyone have a screencap of the moment on the bridge with that map of Trill on one of the transparent screens?

Here you go, I made it just for you =D

 

[Timo]

On the plus side, this DOES jive with Burnham's insinuation that Book has a whole new quadrant to mess around in, as TECHNICALLY Donatu V is in Beta Quadrant, albeit not TOO Beta Quadrant.

...Although Burnham ought to be thinking in terms of TOS quadrants. Which still would be big enough to be clean slates for folks who can only afford so much dilithium, even if every quadrant is just a subset of a sector.

- The Discovery dilithium bay (sic) extracts a crystal from storage, then lasers it in half before plopping it in a handy container. If we're going by older TOS fandom, the general concept is that back in that day is that dilithium was a power source AND an antimatter reaction regulator; you WOULD need a bay full of dilithium to get far. But by the time of TNG a crystal the size of Book's new one would be enough to moderate the reaction of a Galaxy class ship for years, AND those would be synthetic to begin with. By Voyager's time dilithium would be a hot commodity again, perhaps owing to the lack of refineries or that the real stuff just couldn't be beat.

I'm not sure dilithium ever was a clear-cut power source even in TOS: power was said to be flowing "through" it, just as in the derived technobabble of TNG and ENT. OTOH, I'm not sure dilithium in TNG was synthetic, either, Scotty's inexpert opinion notwithstanding... Recycled, yes, but it always looked more like Elaan's raw crystals than Masters' neat paddles.

Yet smoooooooth. Perhaps that's what recrystallizing does to dilithium, and the stuff we see here is the straight-from-the-mines benchmark?

Discovery might need this hoard chiefly for research purposes, rather than for general navigation. It certainly runs contrary to Scotty running out of spares after a single-digit consumption peak.

- Similarly odd, before the EDF folks pop onto the ship, Burnham drags Book to what would be her lab; but when we next see them they're in someone's quarters getting changed. Did she use the other door in her lab to sneak away from some reason? Not trusting of the turbolifts?

She might have thought that waiting for the bridge turbolift in plain sight, even for two seconds, would have been fatal. She would have been right.

How to get out of the lab? She might even site-to-site. But there does appear to be a whole world behind the turbolift, with a transverse corridor and whatnot. And she might have thought that this area would not warrant inspection teams beaming in at the first wave. She would apparently have been right.

The next episode is light on tech, to the degree that when we see nothing new, it's news of sorts.

Namely, shuttle DSC31 is now at her standard configuration, missing the bulky side packs for phasers and the roof mount for whatever. Not repainted and polished, though. Who took the time to disarm that one, and why? Or was DSC31 never armed?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DEWLine]

Here you go, I made it just for you =D

Thank you kindly!

 

[Tosk]

Here you go, I made it just for you =D

'Ey, that reminds me...the oceans of Trill are supposed to be purple-ish. Oh well, maybe they changed since DS9.

 

[Timo]

Not quite - they never were the slightest bit purple'ish even in DS9!

To the human eye, that is. Perhaps Trill eyes are different?

(The never-quoted backstory for the Trill in the DS9 writers' bible suggested an environmental disaster in the past. Perhaps Dax had lived before that one? And perhaps it was all the purple algae dying that directly resulted in them starting to eat soyl... I mean joining?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tosk]

Or maybe Dax wasn't speaking of home at all, just stating a personal preference. She likes purple oceans.

 

[Timo]

...One technicality in "Forget Me Not" that I think is a Trek first: helms-presumed-woman Detmer turns out to be Pilot by title.

Previously, only Romulans did that, right? In Starfleet, Helm was Helm, and the person there was the Helmsman, unless she wasn't and then it reverted to Helm, or later Conn (although I don't think we ever head Janeway address Paris as her Conn Man?).

"Pilot" in that context would be somebody who comes aboard and rudely shoves Helm to the side to guide the ship into the harbor.

I for one welcome our new alien overlords here. "Pilot" radiates the burden Detmer is feeling, getting across the concept that she alone is wrangling this huge thing through all sorts of hoops, without even the support of a trusted Navigator to her side.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Uh, uh.. The purple is only visible at dawn and twilight. Because of the phosphorescence of the symbiote pools leaching out into the oceans along certain shorelines. Or something.

Now, about an earlier Tal wearing a late 24th / early 25th century uniform. We have seen evidence that Trill hosts can live a long time and remain relatively spry throughout (Curzon Dax, if you believe the extended canon, had adventures with a slightly younger Sisko AND a slightly older bunch of Klingons). Also, we don't KNOW how long the symbiotes can actually live. Perhaps Tal spent a century or more in the symbiote pools or in stasis between some hosts?

In practice I also feel that having "only" seven hosts over an 800+ year lifespan is stretching it from a narrative point of view (Dax has ben through eight in 350..?) there's plenty of ways the symbiote has lasted this long.

Mark

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Tom Paris called himself "pilot" more than once, pre-helmsman, and that implication was similarly macho as it means for Detmer - a pilot didn't DRIVE their ships, they FLEW them.

Although "pilot" is also appropriately gender-neutral, and that could have been a deliberate and suitable choice for 2020 audiences.

Mark

 

[Timo]

For the late 24th century O'Brien, a lifespan of 140 was something to semi-realistically aspire to, even if for McCoy, it was apparently exceptional. So there could be a recent trend there, and all humanoids might be equal beneficiaries of post-25th century medicine, so that hosts who join young (like Grey) carry on for basically their whole life of 200 and thus just five of them can cover the S2 to S3 time hop.

That Tal would get so few hosts is interesting, though. Out of our sample of two, which one is the outlier?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DEWLine]

Also, someone's got to be crewing Detmer's post when she's off-duty, right? There should be at least one, maybe two other people who do the job as junior officers.

 

[Tuskin38]

For the late 24th century O'Brien, a lifespan of 140 was something to semi-realistically aspire to, even if for McCoy, it was apparently exceptional. So there could be a recent trend there, and all humanoids might be equal beneficiaries of post-25th century medicine, so that hosts who join young (like Grey) carry on for basically their whole life of 200 and thus just five of them can cover the S2 to S3 time hop.

That Tal would get so few hosts is interesting, though. Out of our sample of two, which one is the outlier?

Timo Saloniemi

It's also possible that the symbiont took breaks between some hosts. if that's a thing they can do.

Also, someone's got to be crewing Detmer's post when she's off-duty, right? There should be at least one, maybe two other people who do the job as junior officers.

We've seen fill in officers at the heal console in DSC.

 

[Timo]

Apparently, the "taking a break" thing takes some doing: we have heard of several emergencies where Host A ceases to be viable, and the only way forward is to hastily shove the symbiont into Host B.

Presumably A would be required to have the decency of dying inside the Caves of Mak'ala to give the symbiont any hope of survival... I gather this could be arranged for, though, especially if A opted for suicide.

And yeah, Detmer has colleagues. Who probably are part of the problem rather than of the solution, if the stressful position is also a competitive one. But I can well see why Starfleet would not wish to divide steering between several people (even if real navies sometimes have to do this in complex machines like submarines).

At least they have taken the burden of firing the guns off the pilot, unlike in TOS where Sulu had to do double duty like a WWII fighter pilot. Even though his late-1960s equivalent might be expected to ride with a dedicated WSO, this wasn't yet a well-known thing at the airing...

Timo Saloniemi