Star Trek #8: Black Fire by Sonni Cooper

[Damian]

I actually prefer the 10-year interpretation, simply due to the fact that because it was 10-years after the show, the characters looked a lot older than what you would expect two to three years to allow for. Unfortunately, the rest of the franchise didn't go with this interpretation, so it is what it is.

I guess that might be why TWOK sort of did a self correction, making it 15 years post "Space Seed" which better accounts for the actors age...and TUC sort of did the same thing, taking place about 7 or 8 years post TFF.

Of course assuming TMP took place around 2273, and TWOK took place about 10 to 12 years later makes more sense if you consider they were decommissioning the Enterprise in TSFS (at most a few months after TWOK). If TMP was 10 years post 5YM then that would mean they completely refit the Enterprise only to decommission it 3 to 5 years later. That would seem a mighty waste.

 

[Christopher]

I actually prefer the 10-year interpretation, simply due to the fact that because it was 10-years after the show, the characters looked a lot older than what you would expect two to three years to allow for. Unfortunately, the rest of the franchise didn't go with this interpretation, so it is what it is.

TMP itself ruled out that interpretation, as I mentioned -- "My five years out there," not ten.

Personally, I never saw the actors' change in age from TOS to TMP as all that great, except for Doohan and maybe Nimoy.

Ok, yeah, looking at it through the lens of when it was written, I could see that. Nowadays we kind of assume the 3 seasons of the TV series plus the 2 seasons of the animated series (however brief) filled out the 5 YM more or less. But back then, esp. if you didn't take the animated series into consideration, you could say that the TV series just covered the first 3 years, leaving 2 years to play with.

Well, TAS was only 22 episodes, so it's a single year's worth at most, leaving a year or so for books.

 

[Damian]

Well, TAS was only 22 episodes, so it's a single year's worth at most, leaving a year or so for books.

True. There was a time I thought TAS was only a single season. It wasn't until I got the DVD I found out it was 2 seasons. I have the updated Asherman Compendium with TAS listed, but that doesn't really divide it into seasons either (like it did for the TV series).

I kind of spread them out in my mind over 5 years, leaving books to fill in the spaces (since the books take place at varying times during the 5 YM).

Of course nowadays there are way more books then can reasonably fit into 5 years (even if you took away the TV series and animated series). And unlike the books for the other TV series, the ones based on the original series don't fit into a single continuity very well. I guess it's in the spirit of the original series, which was very much episodic. In fact, there are probably many different, inconsistent continuities in original series novels. Though I guess you can argue that some novels can co-exist in the same continuity even if they don't reference each other if they don't outright contradict each other for the most part. I think of your latest "The Higher Frontier" novel and the "New Earth" series, which is another significant post-TMP story. While not every last detail lines up, there's nothing to say that both stories can't co-exist in the same timeline. Your "Higher Frontier" leaves plenty of space for other stories to exist. It's one nice thing about having about 10 years between TMP and TWOK--there's a lot of story open there. And of course, I always say the same about the 7 or 8 years between TFF and TUC, though sadly (for me at least), there are only a handful of novels that take place in that period.

TMP itself ruled out that interpretation, as I mentioned -- "My five years out there," not ten.

Personally, I never saw the actors' change in age from TOS to TMP as all that great, except for Doohan and maybe Nimoy.

And like I said, I just took the 2 1/2 years comment at face value. I figured that's how much time they wanted us to think that passed.

I mean, I guess it's a bit unusual for it to be 2 1/2 years in universe and 10 years in real life. But I guess at the time I didn't give it much thought. I saw the movies before the TV series. While I knew the TV series aired in the 60s, I didn't see them until after I saw the first 4 films. I guess since I didn't wait 10 years for the first movie to come out after the TV series ended, I just didn't give it much thought at the time.

 

[Avro Arrow]

TMP itself ruled out that interpretation, as I mentioned -- "My five years out there," not ten.

Until TUC, we could have just interpreted that as Kirk got promoted after the FYM, and the Enterprise continued on with another captain. I don't think there was anything in TMP itself that would have precluded that, and it would have also accounted for Kirk perhaps spending some time as a commodore, rather than (seemingly) getting bumped right from captain to rear admiral.

The reporter's line in TUC ruled that out (although to be fair, it was also presumably factually incorrect, since Spock seemed to be in command during the TWOK timeframe).

I don't think the franchise as it is now supports the 10-year interpretation, I just would have preferred if they had gone that route. Oh well, it's not really a big deal, I was just trying to let @Damian know why some people might have preferred it.

 

[Damian]

The reporter's line in TUC ruled that out (although to be fair, it was also presumably factually incorrect, since Spock seemed to be in command during the TWOK timeframe).

I think you mean Generations. But that was part of that other discussion as well. I forget the exact argument made, but that it was something like Kirk was Captain of the last two Enterprises for significant periods during the last 30 years I think it was. Though some argued that didn't mean that. My take was that the writers were assuming the same thing as the novels, that Kirk commanded the Enterprise for a number of years after TMP before being promoted again. Some argued otherwise. I kind of fell out of the debate on that point. It was getting a bit too in the weeds for me. I like a good debate (sometimes I'm guilty of going in the weeds myself in fact). But since I'm an avid novel reader, the line made sense as I understood it. I think many novels that mention the post-TMP period note Kirk was captain for at least a few years.

I don't think the franchise as it is now supports the 10-year interpretation, I just would have preferred if they had gone that route. Oh well, it's not really a big deal, I was just trying to let @Damian know why some people might have preferred it.

Yeah, that's a bit of a different issue. It might have been interesting to see a pre-TMP mission without Kirk in command, or even in command with a different type of mission. Obviously that's kind of moot at this point. But it's always interesting to see things go down a different path.

It's one reason I'm enjoying re-reading some of these early novels. It's one way of seeing how the Star Trek continuity was viewed at that point in time, before we had TNG and all the continuity building that followed. I love continuity stuff, and I love what the later shows did. But it's always interesting to see how it was viewed when all there was just the original series, the animated series (maybe), and a few movies.

I kind of briefly flirted with the idea that maybe some of the novel writers of that time who wrote about a potential ambiguous post 5YM but pre-TMP were thinking maybe the old Phase 2 TV series could have been that other mission...that these could have been Phase 2 stories (kind of like the TV series that never was but could have been). But there's a lot of faults in that argument, and when I considered it further I found it highly unlikely that's what they were thinking.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Sonni’s a woman, and she was apparently a consultant-writer on the Star Trek movies.

IIRC, Sonni Cooper ran William Shatner's fan club, the WS Fan Fellowship, for many years, so her connection with the movies was also in connection with Shatner. She was his publicist.

The cover art for "Black Fire" also appeared on a Trek RPG.

About a year after publication of "Black Fire", Cooper published the book's "outtakes" in a Trek zine called "Infinite Diversity" #5.

In 1983, another zine explained "This story was originally written to explain why Spock went to Gol [for Kolinahr studies] the end of the five-year mission. It's therefore set between then and ST-TMP, and during it, the uniforms change. It also explains why the Enterprise needed an extensive refit. However, presumably because of the time that has passed since ST-TMP was released, it is no longer presented as an explanation of Spock's retreat to Gol..." ["Communicator", a UK newsletter].

 

[Avro Arrow]

I think you mean Generations.

You are correct, of course. I will turn in my Trek card on my way out!

 

[Timo]

...The thing is, the reporter is absolutely correct in her statement. This is the first Enterprise that isn't blessed with Kirk commanding her, never mind for how long (except of course she soon gets the blessing anyway!); the story is about the ship, but the angle is about how the famous Kirk feels about the ship, and provoking him with "This time you won't get even a two-week command, nyah nyah, now whom do you want to punch for that?" is the exact right way to proceed there.

It's not supposed to give us datapoints, new or old. It's as best reiterating what the audience/public already knows, that Kirk and Enterprise belong together, in the same phrase at least, if not quite with one sitting inside the other.

As for who commanded the previous ships... Logically, we only ever hear the "without" part, so we can deduce nothing at all about the "with" or the "instead".

Umm, but this had something to do with Black Fire. Which I never read, so I just gotta ask:

Was there a description of any sort of those cruisers, the Talon and the Sackett, that are supposedly involved?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

I mean, I guess it's a bit unusual for it to be 2 1/2 years in universe and 10 years in real life.

Not that unusual for movies, I think. ST 3-5 did the same, picking up just weeks or months after the previous films while years passed in real life. And Back to the Future Part II picked up immediately after (indeed, during) the finale of the original film from 4 years earlier.

Until TUC, we could have just interpreted that as Kirk got promoted after the FYM, and the Enterprise continued on with another captain. I don't think there was anything in TMP itself that would have precluded that, and it would have also accounted for Kirk perhaps spending some time as a commodore, rather than (seemingly) getting bumped right from captain to rear admiral.

In some other context, perhaps, but that doesn't work for what we're talking about here, which are the occasional early Pocket novels that implied a pre-TMP mission under Kirk that lasted considerably more than 5 years.

 

[Damian]

You are correct, of course. I will turn in my Trek card on my way out!

Uh-oh. I probably should have turned in my card a while ago. I've made my fair share of boo-boos with my Star Trek 'facts.'

And I once created quite a stir when I confused Marvel and DC Comics. Apparently a pretty significant faux pas

In 1983, another zine explained "This story was originally written to explain why Spock went to Gol [for Kolinahr studies] the end of the five-year mission. It's therefore set between then and ST-TMP, and during it, the uniforms change. It also explains why the Enterprise needed an extensive refit. However, presumably because of the time that has passed since ST-TMP was released, it is no longer presented as an explanation of Spock's retreat to Gol..." ["Communicator", a UK newsletter].

I got the sense that she was trying to give an explanation about some of the changes we see in TMP. It was never explicit, except maybe with Chekov and perhaps a little bit with the new ship changes (though they didn't go as far as TMP).

Perhaps an early attempt at continuity building. Spock deciding to study Kolinahr after those events might make a little sense I suppose. It'd be a stretch, but I guess you can argue Spock's journey required him to re-find his center. He was humiliated (and perhaps even sexually abused in some fashion--at least indirectly, he was forced to allow the female Tomarii disrobe and bathe him for instance), then bullied in prison and then he had to take a role in the Romulan Empire. That can mess with anyone's psyche, even Spock's. But that's certainly not explicit in the novel, or even implicit really. But an early reader might make that inference I suppose.

In some ways it might be similar to "The Crucible" where Spock decided to study Kolinahr after he felt he failed Kirk, and there seemed to need to refind himself as well (though while I liked that trilogy in general, I didn't care for that bit because while Kirk was devastated he had to let Edith die, I think by the end of the 5YM he had moved on, I always had difficulty seeing Spock regretting his actions all those years later). I kind of liked the idea better that Spock felt he needed to purge his human half and felt Kolinahr was the best way to achieve that, rather that some event that caused him to take it up. Of course we learn V'Ger helped him learn to embrace his whole self, something I think Christopher noted was maybe one thing that carried over (even if unintentionally) into TWOK. His finding comfort finally in his own skin.

Not that unusual for movies, I think. ST 3-5 did the same, picking up just weeks or months after the previous films while years passed in real life. And Back to the Future Part II picked up immediately after (indeed, during) the finale of the original film from 4 years earlier.

Yeah, I guess it's not all that uncommon. Perhaps that's why in TWOK and TUC they seemed to do a bit of self-correction, adjusting the time line to account for the actors age so it didn't get too out of whack.

...The thing is, the reporter is absolutely correct in her statement. This is the first Enterprise that isn't blessed with Kirk commanding her, never mind for how long (except of course she soon gets the blessing anyway!);

Yeah, I never thought much bout that comment from the number of years perspective, other than as you noted the reporter seemed to be trying to get a rise out of Kirk by pointing out he wasn't in command of the Enterprise (and perhaps foreshadowing his brief pleasure at sitting in the captain's chair before quickly telling Harriman to stay put). And since I follow the novels, which went with the idea that Kirk commanded the Enterprise for several years after TMP before taking another promotion, in the continuity I follow Kirk was in command for most of those years, with the exception being the 2 1/2 years before TMP and when Spock was made captain some time before TWOK. So in my eyes it's largely accurate however the question is viewed.

And the way the question was phrased was that this would be the first Enterprise without him in command was accurate nonetheless. There was no expectation that he would ever command this Enterprise, unlike the last 2.