Reading Marathon: The Typhon Pact... and Beyond!

[Stevil2001]

Hmm, maybe Christopher is appreciative of a pretty lady. I really liked Choudhury and was very sad to see her pass away. Memory Beta has a 'picture' of her (I forget where it was from off hand) but she is much as I imagined her to be. Beautiful and exotic. And I always loved her first name, Jasminder. I always liked feminine, exotic names.

I also liked her replacement, Smrhova, who I have heard is based on the actress of the same name who is also very attractive

Ha, this is something I was thinking about because there are a number of characters (always women) we are told are very attractive in The Body Electric. I don't quite get it for two reasons. One, I can't see them, and the book saying "Dina Elfiki was very attractive"... well, just saying it doesn't actually make her attractive. Two, it seems a meaningless statement in a media tie-in novel, given on screen, everybody is very attractive. But it seems to have worked on you, so maybe it makes more sense than I credit.

 

[Christopher]

Ha, this is something I was thinking about because there are a number of characters (always women) we are told are very attractive in The Body Electric.

You know that was a David Mack book, right?

 

[Stevil2001]

You know that was a David Mack book, right?

Yes, sorry for the unclear wording-- I was building on @Damian's post to make a more general point about the female TNG relaunch characters embodied by the one I am currently reading.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, sorry for the unclear wording-- I was building on @Damian's post to make a more general point about the female TNG relaunch characters embodied by the one I am currently reading.

Which is my point -- I don't know why I'm getting singled out for something that's quite commonly done by many writers throughout the history of fiction. I admit I've sometimes indulged in male gaze in my writing, but not more so than my contemporaries or predecessors, and I've always tried to balance it with female gaze. And I do it less now than I used to.

As for what makes it meaningful to comment on a character's attractiveness, presumably it's to demonstrate that the viewpoint character of that scene is attracted to the character in question, which would be relevant to how they relate to each other. The Pocket/Gallery Star Trek "house style," in my experience, stresses point-of-view writing over omniscient narration, so any description represents a specific character's perceptions and reactions and should serve their character development.

 

[Stevil2001]

Which is my point -- I don't know why I'm getting singled out for something that's quite commonly done by many writers throughout the history of fiction. I admit I've sometimes indulged in male gaze in my writing, but not more so than my contemporaries or predecessors, and I've always tried to balance it with female gaze. And I do it less now than I used to.

As for what makes it meaningful to comment on a character's attractiveness, presumably it's to demonstrate that the viewpoint character of that scene is attracted to the character in question, which would be relevant to how they relate to each other. The Pocket/Gallery Star Trek "house style," in my experience, stresses point-of-view writing over omniscient narration, so any description represents a specific character's perceptions and reactions and should serve their character development.

I don't think I was singling you out? I was commenting on it in the context of a book I was reading, and doing this project has made me cognizant of it as a recurrent feature of your fiction, and other posters picked up on it.

That said, I do think it happens more in your Star Trek fiction than others': I didn't note it in Dayton Ward's work, or Una McCormack's, or David George's. You're right it is often in POVs, but I don't think that really excuses it-- if male POVs are always assessing female attractiveness but not the other way around. That scene where Dulmur and Lucsly comment on how Elfiki's ass is so good you can see it through a holo-disguise I found off-putting. I cannot imagine reacting like that toward a work colleague.

 

[Damian]

Ha, this is something I was thinking about because there are a number of characters (always women) we are told are very attractive in The Body Electric. I don't quite get it for two reasons. One, I can't see them, and the book saying "Dina Elfiki was very attractive"... well, just saying it doesn't actually make her attractive. Two, it seems a meaningless statement in a media tie-in novel, given on screen, everybody is very attractive. But it seems to have worked on you, so maybe it makes more sense than I credit.

I have a hard time envisioning some characters. Choudhury was easier because there was a likeness of her in Memory Beta. I did just look up Elfiki and yes, her character is pretty as well. But not all characters have a 'picture' that you could see them.

But it's not uncommon in Star Trek to have physically 'attractive' characters, female and male. I could remember a few times when males were similarly assessed. And in general I don't have a problem with that, as long as there is more to the character than just that. There was a lot more to Elfiki and Choudhury than that. In fact, with Elfiki it was other aspects of her character I noticed first. I didn't really think about her physical appearance when reading about her most of the time.

Choudhury was a bit different, yes. But like I noted, there was a certain exoticness to her character on multiple levels that I found attractive in her character.

That scene where Dulmur and Lucsly comment on how Elfiki's ass is so good you can see it through a holo-disguise I found off-putting

I have to admit I don't remember that line. Is that really what it said? I have a hard time envisioning particularly Lucsly commenting on that.

Perhaps that's just a bit of 'real world' creeping into the story. I'll admit to admiring an attractive lady, though there is I believe a firm distinction between admiring a female and what I would call the old 'undressing with your eyes' look, which I'm always cognizant of and personally avoid. Eyes are usually the first thing I notice anyway (not as Malcolm Reed would call their 'bum').

Sorry, I was drifting there. But in Christopher's defense, it's not something I noticed in his most recent books, "The Captain's Oath" or "The Higher Frontier". So in his defense I think it's not something I've noticed in his more recent novels.

Some of the older novels kind of meld together for me. While I recall the overall storyline, I don't recall specifics of who wrote what, who developed such and such a character and so forth.

 

[Damian]

I adored the character of Choudhury, and was very sad to see her go. Smrhova, I'm not as sold on really.

She was better in "Collateral Damage". It seemed like David Mack decided it was time to give her character some more development. I agree before that, Smrhova seemed to suffer a lack of depth. She seemed a competent security chief, there just wasn't much to her character previously.

 

[Stevil2001]

I have to admit I don't remember that line. Is that really what it said? I have a hard time envisioning particularly Lucsly commenting on that.

Well, I am paraphrasing! But here it is:

 

[Christopher]

I don't think I was singling you out? I was commenting on it in the context of a book I was reading, and doing this project has made me cognizant of it as a recurrent feature of your fiction, and other posters picked up on it.

As I said, it's a recurring feature of tons of fiction.

You're right it is often in POVs, but I don't think that really excuses it-- if male POVs are always assessing female attractiveness but not the other way around.

"Always" is incorrect. I've written plenty of fiction from female POVs admiring male attractiveness, e.g. Emerald Blair reacting to Greg Tai and Eliot Thorne in Only Superhuman and Nashira assessing David and Julio in my Hub stories -- not to mention David admiring Julio's attractiveness and the two of them becoming lovers. Perhaps you just haven't read enough of my original work. Star Trek has a much higher ratio of male to female characters than my original fiction does, so I find myself writing from male POVs more often in a Trek context.

That scene where Dulmur and Lucsly comment on how Elfiki's ass is so good you can see it through a holo-disguise I found off-putting. I cannot imagine reacting like that toward a work colleague.

You're misrepresenting the scene. Dulmur remarks on it, and Lucsly rolls his eyes in disapproval. They're different people who react in ways that are respectively in character for them, and Dulmur's got an eye for the ladies while Lucsly is more focused on his work. And David Mack had already established Dina Elfiki as a striking beauty.

And come on, of course you'd notice if a co-worker were attractive, but that's different from telling her to her face. Dulmur would not have done that.

 

[Stevil2001]

As I said, it's a recurring feature of tons of fiction.

I don't know that things being "recurrent feature[s ] of tons of fiction" necessarily justifies them.

"Always" is incorrect. I've written plenty of fiction from female POVs admiring male attractiveness, e.g. Emerald Blair reacting to Greg Tai and Eliot Thorne in Only Superhuman and Nashira assessing David and Julio in my Hub stories -- not to mention David admiring Julio's attractiveness and the two of them becoming lovers. Perhaps you just haven't read enough of my original work.

You're right, I haven't read any of your original fiction. In any case, all I can do is assess the work I am reading in the context I am reading it in.

You're misrepresenting the scene. Dulmur remarks on it, and Lucsly rolls his eyes in disapproval. They're different people who react in ways that are respectively in character for them, and Dulmur's got an eye for the ladies while Lucsly is more focused on his work. And David Mack had already established Dina Elfiki as a striking beauty.

Lucsly's disapproval is, "you're too old for her," though, not, "please don't ogle your co-workers."

And come on, of course you'd notice if a co-worker were attractive, but that's different from telling her to her face. Dulmur would not have done that.

Yes I would notice-- but I wouldn't make a comment like that.

I'm not sure why you're being so defensive about this given when I originally reviewed the book, you said, "I have been trying to work on the male-gaze thing since then."

 

[Damian]

Well, I am paraphrasing! But here it is:

I don't know, maybe I'm more forgiving but that's pretty mild. And Lucsly doesn't share his partner's, um, viewpoint.

And that's not uncommon in the real world either. I wouldn't even say that's 'locker room' talk really.

We are, after all, only human.

But as I noted, there is a fine line between just admiring an attractive person, and a leering look, or making grossly inappropriate comments. I don't think this crossed that line personally.

 

[Christopher]

I don't know that things being "recurrent feature[s ] of tons of fiction" necessarily justifies them.

I didn't say it did. I admit I've overused male gaze in my past work, and it's something I've tried to do less of over time. I'm just bewildered that you think it's somehow a unique failing of mine. I've seen plenty of fiction that did it to a far greater and more gratuitous degree.

Lucsly's disapproval is, "you're too old for her," though, not, "please don't ogle your co-workers."

The point is, you claimed that they were both commenting on her attractiveness. That was an outright falsehood. It would have been completely out of character for Lucsly to do that. What was in character for Lucsly was focusing on their relative ages, because he is obsessed with time and chronology.

And while we're at it, Dina Elfiki is not their co-worker. They work for the DTI, a civilian government agency; she's a Starfleet officer assigned to the Enterprise. They share no common chain of command. They were working together on a common case, that's all.

 

[Stevil2001]

I'm not really interested in continuing to litigate this.

 

[Damian]

As an aside, I'm all for giving women their due. And for treating women with respect and not over-sexualizing them.

But I hope we don't sterilize it to the point that even just admiring an attractive lady is considered out of bounds. As I noted, there is a fine line between just admiring and a leering look.

It's ok to look (for men and women in fact). Just no staring (which for me would be particularly bad since I notice their eyes first )

 

[David Mack]

Ha, this is something I was thinking about because there are a number of characters (always women) we are told are very attractive in The Body Electric. I don't quite get it for two reasons. One, I can't see them, and the book saying "Dina Elfiki was very attractive"... well, just saying it doesn't actually make her attractive. Two, it seems a meaningless statement in a media tie-in novel, given on screen, everybody is very attractive.

First, I wrote Cold Equations, Book III: The Body Electric.

Second, I call bullshit.

I just did a search of the final production PDF of that book. Not once did I describe Elfiki as "attractive." In fact, the word "attractive" does not appear in the manuscript AT ALL.

I decribed Elfiki only once, on her initial appearance:

The lithe young Egyptian woman, whose fashionably styled dark brown hair framed her dramatically high cheekbones and symmetrical features in the most flattering way possible, called up her own screen of data on the MSD panel behind her seat.​

I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from mischaracterizing my work in a public forum, please.

 

[trampledamage]

Okay, I need to call a halt to this line of conversation - I don't want anybody to feel personally attacked by review discussions and I definitely do not want a general discussion of what is considered acceptable in attraction.

 

[Steve Roby]

Beautiful and exotic. And I always loved her first name, Jasminder. I always liked feminine, exotic names.

Just as an FYI, there's a lot of places where she wouldn't seem particularly exotic, and not just in south Asia. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Jasminder is a Sikh name, so it's ungendered. There are men and women with that name.

 

[Damian]

Just as an FYI, there's a lot of places where she wouldn't seem particularly exotic, and not just in south Asia. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Jasminder is a Sikh name, so it's ungendered. There are men and women with that name.

Well, exotic in my neck of the woods at least

I liked a lot about her character though. She was a bit different from the usual security chief, which as Christopher indicated was intentional. She was one of my favorite novel-original characters. I also liked Chen quite a bit.

And that goes for some of the original characters on the Titan, DS9 and Voyager as well. I give the authors a lot of credit for giving never before seen characters the kind of depth that many of us readers actually cared about what happened to them, and in cases like Choudhury's, saddened when they die unexpectedly.

 

[Christopher]

She was a bit different from the usual security chief, which as Christopher indicated was intentional.

I think ST tends to miss the point of security officers by portraying them as fighters. The job of a security chief should be to prevent conflict, to anticipate danger and nip it in the bud, to de-escalate crises rather than just pointing a phaser at things. I mean, what does it mean to be secure? I tried to reflect that in my portrayal of both Rennan Konya and Jasminder Choudhury.

DS9 got it right with Odo. His job was to keep the peace, and he did it without weapons. But then, since that was more of a "frontier fort" format, there was more room for a "town lawman" character, as opposed to just a bodyguard for the captain or first officer.

 

[Damian]

I think ST tends to miss the point of security officers by portraying them as fighters. The job of a security chief should be to prevent conflict, to anticipate danger and nip it in the bud, to de-escalate crises rather than just pointing a phaser at things. I mean, what does it mean to be secure? I tried to reflect that in my portrayal of both Rennan Konya and Jasminder Choudhury.

DS9 got it right with Odo. His job was to keep the peace, and he did it without weapons. But then, since that was more of a "frontier fort" format, there was more room for a "town lawman" character, as opposed to just a bodyguard for the captain or first officer.

It's interesting you noted that because I've been watching TNG over again and I just watched "Skin of Evil" about a week ago. Once Worf became security chief he sort of took the view you noted. While you could tell he wanted to go down to Vagra II to take on Armus, he took his role to heart and noted the goal was to save the away team in the shuttle, not engage Armus in combat, and he can best do that from the ship.