Starship design history in light of Discovery
- Thread starter INACTIVEUSS Einstein
- Start date
Is any Star Trek argument ever really settled?
I mean we all know most large starships have a roller coaster layout of shafts and such for turbolifts don't we?
Also that the shafts are triangle shape yet the cars are square inside.
Oh, and Tuvix deserved it.
#Fact
#Fact
Two more Section 31 designs from Eaglemoss
Shiva
Hou-Yi
They called the 4 nacelle one without the Rollbar 'Nimrod'
I like Section 31 ships
Me too.
I was sort of hoping there would be more detail differences between the variants, rather than just the bolting on of the extra two nacelles. But the fleet is impressive as is, with a nice theme going on, a good contrast with the rest of Starfleet, and all. How many variants were there in the end?
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
I think just the four, two primary hull designs with either two or four nacelles.
Talk about the worst ways of designing a Turbo-Lift.I mean we all know most large starships have a roller coaster layout of shafts and such for turbolifts don't we?
Also that the shafts are triangle shape yet the cars are square inside.
Makes the TNG era designs look like a genius design.
I'm sure all of us here can design a better basic Turbo-Lift system.
I think this thread has gone a bit off topic. Here are my thoughts:
First of all, the history of starship design isn’t a single line, it’s can be envisioned as four rivers (Earth ships, Vulcan ships, Andorian ships, and Tellarite ships which merge into one central stream which many new streams (new federation members) flow into at various points in time. We can see that the Constitution class is a fusion of Andorian and Earth styles as it’s engineering section is tubular which is like a rounder Andorian ship and the Saucer section is reminiscent of Earth ships. The extensive level of varying height as details on some classes such as the Cardenas Class is reminiscent of Vulcan ships.
Secondly: Ships are refit. Some Star Trek fans will forget refits are a thing. If we want to show the history then we should think about what these ships looked like at first. We could place a Shenzhou style USS Enterprise at 2245 on a timeline since that is the example we have of the 2240s aesthetic. Since the Shenzhou is stated to be old but looks up to date, it is likely that it was refit around the beginning of the 2240s. So we could place an edited Shenzhou with a USS Kelvin look and nacelles in the 2230s section of the timeline.
Also due to the fact that the discovery enterprise has an alleged larger size in discovery and that the sizes of discovery ships provided are relative to this number, we can scale down the sizes accordingly. (There was also a display graphic in universe in Discovery which listed the old size for the Enterprise so its canon)
Cardenas class: 287.797 m
Constitution class: 288.646 m
Crossfield class: 490.11 m
Engle class: 253.186 m
Hiawatha class: 391.501 m
Hoover class: 232.68 m
Magee class: 147.066 m
Malachowski class: 180.894 m
Nimitz class: 250.312 m
Shephard class: 330.114 m
Walker class: 276.499 m
Let’s continue the discussion!
First of all, the history of starship design isn’t a single line, it’s can be envisioned as four rivers (Earth ships, Vulcan ships, Andorian ships, and Tellarite ships which merge into one central stream which many new streams (new federation members) flow into at various points in time. We can see that the Constitution class is a fusion of Andorian and Earth styles as it’s engineering section is tubular which is like a rounder Andorian ship and the Saucer section is reminiscent of Earth ships. The extensive level of varying height as details on some classes such as the Cardenas Class is reminiscent of Vulcan ships.
Secondly: Ships are refit. Some Star Trek fans will forget refits are a thing. If we want to show the history then we should think about what these ships looked like at first. We could place a Shenzhou style USS Enterprise at 2245 on a timeline since that is the example we have of the 2240s aesthetic. Since the Shenzhou is stated to be old but looks up to date, it is likely that it was refit around the beginning of the 2240s. So we could place an edited Shenzhou with a USS Kelvin look and nacelles in the 2230s section of the timeline.
Also due to the fact that the discovery enterprise has an alleged larger size in discovery and that the sizes of discovery ships provided are relative to this number, we can scale down the sizes accordingly. (There was also a display graphic in universe in Discovery which listed the old size for the Enterprise so its canon)
Cardenas class: 287.797 m
Constitution class: 288.646 m
Crossfield class: 490.11 m
Engle class: 253.186 m
Hiawatha class: 391.501 m
Hoover class: 232.68 m
Magee class: 147.066 m
Malachowski class: 180.894 m
Nimitz class: 250.312 m
Shephard class: 330.114 m
Walker class: 276.499 m
Let’s continue the discussion!
I guess the problem there is that the Nimitz at least is huge, easily 500 meters long by things like deck count. The official size apparently came out of somebody's ass, after the designer had delivered a product intended to be much larger; scaling her further down doesn't seem workable.
I could easily see every DSC ship with an "era-appropriate" nacelle design originally; the Shenzhou would look cool with ENT style ones on short pylons without the 'tween-pylons "bridge", say, but then Starfleet would want something faster and would add the part of the pylons outboard of the fancy strakes, plus more oomph in some machinery in the 'ween-bridge, and bolt the modern big nacelles at the tips of the new structure.
I could also see a trend where ships get smaller towards the 2280s, as starship doodads get more compact and can be housed inside Malachowski caliber ships when previously an Engle hull was needed. Say, Eaves' idea that the Hoover was a "carrier" could easily be expanded to the Engle and her big boxes, too, and to the Crossfield with her triangle hull which in fandom is associated with shuttlecarriers: back in the mists of time, Starfleet really felt it needed lots of auxiliary craft, perhaps because the old transporters sucked. As soon as this technological limitation dissipated, the ships got smaller, or suffered from oversized shuttlebays echoing with emptiness, like Kirk's in TOS.
Looking back at the S31 ships, it appears there are only two designs in-universe. It's just that S31 can bolt on all sorts of optional extras as needed...
1) As many nacelles as one needs.
2) A torpedo roll bar if required.
3) A lightweight angular framework around the hull proper, for suspending drones; while not easy to see in the actual episode, designer Ryan Dening's show-and-tell reveals that when the drones are gone, the whole wedge is just a transparent collection of girders.
In the center of all this generally sits the one and only original S31 ship design. Only, there are two ways to bolt the nacelles to the center: forward, as shown on the above two Eaglemoss models, or much farther aft, as in the Nimrod and her potential two-nacelle counterpart. If this calls for modifying the hull of the "core ship" somehow, it should count as a second design. Unfortunately, we only have one good image of the larger type, that is, the one with the nacelles farther aft, from Dening's Nimrod slide:
A beavertail (and rollbar?) down and aft of the two rear prongs of the good old "core ship", and then horizontal pylons from the beavertail, and then the standard nacelle-plus-pylon pair at each tip. That's a bit more than I'd be willing to call a bolt-on "module".
With all the add-ons, there could have been more than the core and four permutations, regardless of what Dening said. But still just two "ship classes", and a well-working pit stop team with ample shelves of mission gear...
EDIT: Watching IrishTrekkie's videos on the Eaglemoss ships, it seems the Nimrod (along with her two-nacelle counterpart?) has a modified core hull rather than a plug-in basic stealth ship: the lower part of the hull is farther aft, the impulse engines are higher up and further in on the shoulders, and there seems to be a slight stretching of the structure aft of the bridge, too. So definitely two ships plus their add-ons - but probably still not four distinct hulls.
Timo Saloniemi
I could easily see every DSC ship with an "era-appropriate" nacelle design originally; the Shenzhou would look cool with ENT style ones on short pylons without the 'tween-pylons "bridge", say, but then Starfleet would want something faster and would add the part of the pylons outboard of the fancy strakes, plus more oomph in some machinery in the 'ween-bridge, and bolt the modern big nacelles at the tips of the new structure.
I could also see a trend where ships get smaller towards the 2280s, as starship doodads get more compact and can be housed inside Malachowski caliber ships when previously an Engle hull was needed. Say, Eaves' idea that the Hoover was a "carrier" could easily be expanded to the Engle and her big boxes, too, and to the Crossfield with her triangle hull which in fandom is associated with shuttlecarriers: back in the mists of time, Starfleet really felt it needed lots of auxiliary craft, perhaps because the old transporters sucked. As soon as this technological limitation dissipated, the ships got smaller, or suffered from oversized shuttlebays echoing with emptiness, like Kirk's in TOS.
Looking back at the S31 ships, it appears there are only two designs in-universe. It's just that S31 can bolt on all sorts of optional extras as needed...
1) As many nacelles as one needs.
2) A torpedo roll bar if required.
3) A lightweight angular framework around the hull proper, for suspending drones; while not easy to see in the actual episode, designer Ryan Dening's show-and-tell reveals that when the drones are gone, the whole wedge is just a transparent collection of girders.
In the center of all this generally sits the one and only original S31 ship design. Only, there are two ways to bolt the nacelles to the center: forward, as shown on the above two Eaglemoss models, or much farther aft, as in the Nimrod and her potential two-nacelle counterpart. If this calls for modifying the hull of the "core ship" somehow, it should count as a second design. Unfortunately, we only have one good image of the larger type, that is, the one with the nacelles farther aft, from Dening's Nimrod slide:
A beavertail (and rollbar?) down and aft of the two rear prongs of the good old "core ship", and then horizontal pylons from the beavertail, and then the standard nacelle-plus-pylon pair at each tip. That's a bit more than I'd be willing to call a bolt-on "module".
With all the add-ons, there could have been more than the core and four permutations, regardless of what Dening said. But still just two "ship classes", and a well-working pit stop team with ample shelves of mission gear...
EDIT: Watching IrishTrekkie's videos on the Eaglemoss ships, it seems the Nimrod (along with her two-nacelle counterpart?) has a modified core hull rather than a plug-in basic stealth ship: the lower part of the hull is farther aft, the impulse engines are higher up and further in on the shoulders, and there seems to be a slight stretching of the structure aft of the bridge, too. So definitely two ships plus their add-ons - but probably still not four distinct hulls.
Timo Saloniemi
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There’s no way the Shenzhou is that old. I would prefer a fan art of the shenzhou with the nacelle style of the USS Kelvin form the beginning of Star Trek 2009.
Also my list of sizes: Becaus rod the Enterprise size inconsistently you either have to scale down the discovery ships or scale up all other ships. I am preserving the relative sizes of the ships by downscaling them by exactly the same amount the disco pride alleged size would be to the actual size.
Also my list of sizes: Becaus rod the Enterprise size inconsistently you either have to scale down the discovery ships or scale up all other ships. I am preserving the relative sizes of the ships by downscaling them by exactly the same amount the disco pride alleged size would be to the actual size.
It still uses phase cannons.
Scale it down at all and that big bridge window doesn't fit, breaking every single external shot of the ship.
But really, the way they've reimagined TOS says they don't take minutiae seriously. If TOS can look like TOS or Disco/SNW then the ships can be either size. If Lower Decks is canon then so is TAS and anything goes.
Scale it down at all and that big bridge window doesn't fit, breaking every single external shot of the ship.
But really, the way they've reimagined TOS says they don't take minutiae seriously. If TOS can look like TOS or Disco/SNW then the ships can be either size. If Lower Decks is canon then so is TAS and anything goes.
Well that was different.
It threw me the very first time I saw this movie all those years ago. But anything goes
Or then Georgiou is that old. After all, the guns are also called "phasers" at another point of the pilot episodes.
(Personally, I doubt there's any difference. On one hand, phasers are phasers, even though they had a funny name in ye olden days. On the other, newer phasers are different from older ones, but only by being better, not by being sufficiently different to warrant a new designation. A bit like the first naval cannon and the modern naval guns are the same thing, and all the technologically relevant changes happened without any change in terminology, and the terminology changes happened without any relevant change in technology.)
I have no trouble believing the Walker class is, if not the direct successor of the old Enterprise class, then the next down that line, with the same design language overall. NCC-1227 might herself be a late build, though. What I have more of an issue with is the hopefully much more modern Shepard class being an upside down Walker - but a lot of work was done to really make her look newer, with an almost TOS style saucer and livery and all.
Timo Saloniemi
I think it's interesting that the Shenzhou was still outfitted with phase-cannons and not lasers. From its blend of the NX and Starship-class, it's at least thirty years old by the time of the first episode of DSC. So, maybe the powergrid can't support anything newer than twenty years old or so. But, on the other hand, it's clearly been refitted with the newest warp-nacelles as they look almost TMP-era.