What will make it "Star Trek"?

[BillJ]

No, because while DIS has many virtues, subtlety is not one of them. Its political commentary is very obvious and very clear. And the presence of that commentary by definition precludes DIS from being a lowest-common-denominator shoot-em-up.

I plan on giving the show another shot for season three, as Michelle Paradise is supposed to be a talented writer. Though two things give me pause, she helped write the “Such Sweet Sorrow” wrap up to season two, and...

Spoiler: Season Three...

“Unification III”

 

[Sci]

I think his lifelong obsession with the Enterprise was a sign of trauma ,especially as depicted in TMP. There is a reason why the Kirk's longest 'male - female' relationship was not with a sentient woman, but with a large metallic object that human men describe as female.

That is a 100% legitimate interpretation of the text, but it is not actually present in the text. Textually, Kirk is not portrayed as suffering from long-term trauma from the things that would realistically have caused him long-term trauma.

However, the very fact that TOS is a text that people are can plausibly new readings to such as this is part of what marks it as artistically superior to other TV shows of the 1960s.

 

[Orphalesion]

However, the very fact that TOS is a text that people are can plausibly new readings to such as this is part of what marks it as artistically superior to other TV shows of the 1960s.

Ah, come on now, you can interpret stuff into everything regardless of it "artistic superiority". There's articles on the net that interpret character depth and themes into stuff like Twilight, Charmed, Final Fantasy...everything. And a lot of it is plausible, but not at all supported by the text, just like the fanon you replied to.
As long as something has dedicated fans, there will be fanon (and shipping) regardless of a show's quality.

 

[BillJ]

Textually, Kirk is not portrayed as suffering from long-term trauma from the things that would realistically have caused him long-term trauma.

I would much rather have it this way. Michael Burnham would be a much better character without the wallowing.

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk is not portrayed as suffering from long-term trauma from the things that would realistically have caused him long-term trauma.

More's the pity.

 

[Sci]

I would much rather have it this way. Michael Burnham would be a much better character without the wallowing.

I derive no enjoyment from emotionally dishonest art.

 

[BillJ]

I derive no enjoyment from emotionally dishonest art.

Neither way is “emotionally dishonest”. Because different people react differently to life.

 

[Sci]

Neither way is “emotionally dishonest”. Because different people react differently to life.

The only people who experience the kinds of horrifying events Kirk went through without becoming traumatized are people who already suffered from severe mental health issues, including sociopathy and narcissism. Textually, Kirk doesn't experience any of these things; it is emotionally dishonest.

 

[fireproof78]

Neither way is “emotionally dishonest”. Because different people react differently to life.

As well as it was a different time. As much as I like Burnham Kirk worked for the time.

 

[BillJ]

The only people who experience the kinds of horrifying events Kirk went through without becoming traumatized are people who already suffered from severe mental health issues, including sociopathy and narcissism. Textually, Kirk doesn't experience any of these things; it is emotionally dishonest.

Oh, bullshit. You’ve grabbed onto a couple of buzzwords that you think are some kind of winning hand. That make you look smart. I have suffered severe trauma in my life, and if I didn’t tell you about it, you would never have a clue. Some people are simply able to partition those pieces of their life experience away.

 

[Sci]

Oh, bullshit. You’ve grabbed onto a couple of buzzwords that you think are some kind of winning hand. That make you look smart. I have suffered severe trauma in my life, and if I didn’t tell you about it, you would never have a clue. Some people are simply able to partition those pieces of their life experience away.

TOS does not depict Kirk as refusing to express his trauma to others, as you describe yourself doing. It depicts him as lacking trauma. That is what makes it emotionally dishonest.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh, bullshit. You’ve grabbed onto a couple of buzzwords that you think are some kind of winning hand. That make you look smart. I have suffered severe trauma in my life, and if I didn’t tell you about it, you would never have a clue. Some people are simply able to partition those pieces of their life experience away.

Also, I've read research about resiliency building and going through a traumatic event doesn't always equal a traumatized person. A person who feels in control or has access to resources may view adversity and trauma much differently.

 

[BillJ]

TOS does not depict Kirk as refusing to express his trauma to others, as you describe yourself doing. It depicts him as lacking trauma. That is what makes it emotionally dishonest.

I’m told through the episodes that he has suffered traumatic experiences, I don’t need to see him break down to understand it.

When did we start needing everything spoon fed to us? What happened to audiences being smart enough to pick up what is going on in the text they read or watch?

 

[Sci]

I’m told through the episodes that he has suffered traumatic experiences, I don’t need to see him break down to understand it.

No one said you do. But TOS depicts him as suffering no mental health consequences for the events he goes through. This is not an honest depiction of humanity.

When did we start needing everything spoon fed to us? What happened to audiences being smart enough to pick up what is going on in the text read or watch?

What you are describing is the process of interpreting subtext. The problem is not with a lack of subtextual interpretation by audience members; the problem is that that the subtext that would be necessary for TOS to be emotionally honest in its depiction of the effects of the horrifice events Kirk survives simply does not exist.

 

[fireproof78]

Perhaps because of the era it was made in. Its rather dishonest to assume a 60s era show would depict trauma as understood now. Certainly ancillary materials have dealt with Kurk having trauma, but Kirk on the bridge would leave personal demons in his quarters.

 

[BillJ]

This is not an honest depiction of humanity.

Fuck me. I didn’t know humanity was a one size fits all type of group. We exist on a spectrum, not every person who suffers through a bad event(s) come away the same. You keep pushing “emotionally dishonest” garbage, when what you should be saying is that “I like watching people wallow in misery”. You keep trying to push it as an objective standard when it is just a personal preference.

 

[Sci]

Fuck me. I didn’t know humanity was a one size fits all type of group. We exist on a spectrum, not every person who suffers through a bad event(s) come away the same. You keep pushing “emotionally dishonest” garbage, when what you should be saying is that “I like watching people wallow in misery”. You keep trying to push it as an objective standard when it is just a personal preference.

Yes, shockingly I reject the idea that a person can be exposed to the mass murderer who almost killed him as a child, be forced to allow the woman he loves to die, and then lose his brother, all within less than a year, without becoming traumatized. Fuck me for thinking that normal people experience trauma in response to profound levels of grief and guilt inflicted upon them over very short periods of time.

Let's end this conversation. We're talking past each other at this point and just pissing each other off.

 

[BillJ]

We're talking past each other at this point and just pissing each other off.

Not pissing me off in the slightest, I’m just a bit theatric from time to time. As far as Kirk goes, the Tarsus IV incident may have just hardened him to a degree that he can put traumatic events aside and move on.

I just take umbrage at the “emotional dishonesty” that you keep coming back to. Like it is some kind of acknowledged standard of entertainment that us peasants just don’t get. I don’t mind watching people wallow (I’m just honest about it). I’m just interested in it being done well, which from my perspective Discovery and Picard haven’t done.

 

[Sci]

Not pissing me off in the slightest, I’m just a bit theatric from time to time. As far as Kirk goes, the Tarsus IV incident may have just hardened him to a degree that he can put traumatic events aside and move on.

I just take umbrage at the “emotional dishonesty” that you keep coming back to. Like it is some kind of acknowledged standard of entertainment that us peasants just don’t get. I don’t mind watching people wallow, I’m just interested in it being done well, which from my perspective Discovery and Picard haven’t done.

I asked to end our conversation. Please respect that instead of trying to continue it.

 

[BillJ]

I asked to end our conversation. Please respect that instead of trying to continue it.

So you get to decide when the conversation ends? This peasant will abide by the Lord’s wishes.