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Old style Borg killing

I assume Picard could have just kept changing holoprograms

RATATATATATATATATATATAT!! Borg die.

PICARD: "Computer, medieval England. Give me a broadsword! 90 centimeters long, double edged."
Slice! Slice Slice! More Borg die.
PICARD: "Computer, viking era Sweden. Give me a battle axe! Oak shaft, 108 centimeters long, 1.6 kilogram steel head."
CHOP CHOP CHOP! More Borg die.
PICARD: "Computer, World War II, Iwo Jima. Give me an M2 flamethrower, standard military issue."
FLOOOOOOOOOOOOOF!! Barbecued Borg!
PICARD: "Computer..."
And so on.
 
The interesting thing here is that the Borg see no value in coming prepared. Surely everybody has fired phasers at them for tens of thousands of years already, too?
i

Has there been a response to this that I missed? This looks like a critical observation.
 
What is more, is that the light bullets had the whole power of the holodeck behind them, not just a hand unit.

Surely they're going to have the same destructive force as a real one? The whole point is that it mimics reality 100 percent?
 
And that's my point. On the way to Sector 001, Picard tells LaForge to fire up the industrial replicator and pop out 200 Thompson submachine guns and 40,000 rounds of .45 ACP ammo. If kinetic weapons kill Borg, it'll be a slaughter.
 
And that's my point. On the way to Sector 001, Picard tells LaForge to fire up the industrial replicator and pop out 200 Thompson submachine guns and 40,000 rounds of .45 ACP ammo. If kinetic weapons kill Borg, it'll be a slaughter.

Until their shields adapt...
 
Surely they're going to have the same destructive force as a real one? The whole point is that it mimics reality 100 percent?

That depends on how it is coded. If the point of the holobullet is to perfectly replicate a bullet of a certain grain, muzzle velocity, etc....then you would be right.

But if by bullet you mean “something that can put a hole in any target” then the holodeck will (Moriarty style) give said slug **whatever power it needs** for the desired effect.

Krell Id creature style.

The very holodeck environment itself was a weapon no Borg drone could adapt to or block.
He might as well have been tied to the wrong end of a phaser bank. It was the Ent-E itself versus a couple of drones.

Picard knew this.

An Iotian Tommy gun might have dropped one drone before the others could adapt.
 
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Yeah, I always viewed it as the holodeck bullets were just different enough (from the types of projectiles the Borg had experienced before) to do some damage. If there had been more drones there then they would have adapted after a few more shots.

I also think that the Collective has no issue with sacrificing drones in order to adapt to new threats. It would be no different than you or I sacrificing a few skin cells to check if a mug of coffee was hot or not.
 
That depends on how it is coded. If the point of the holobullet is to perfectly replicate a bullet of a certain grain, muzzle velocity, etc....then you would be right.

But if by bullet you mean “something that can put a hole in any target” then the holodeck will (Moriarty style) give said slug **whatever power it needs** for the desired effect.

Krell Id creature style.

The very holodeck environment itself was a weapon no Borg drone could adapt to or block.
He might as well have been tied to the wrong end of a phaser bank. It was the Ent-E itself versus a couple of drones.

Picard knew this.

An Iotian Tommy gun might have dropped one drone before the others could adapt.

I would imagine the entire point of the holodeck is to perfectly replicate everything down to minute detail (hence the use of the technology to potentially fool the Baku in Insurrection among other incidents and episodes), otherwise it kinda defeats the point of it if it's not accurate, so I'd say the power of a 1930's Tommy gun versus, say a modern assault rifle will be preserved accurately. Why would they get this detail wrong and nothing else? Yes, I'm sure you could tell the computer to increase the power of the bullets if you wanted, but Picard didn't do that, he merely disabled the safety protocols.
 
I think we may be overthinking this a bit.

From the start of that sequence Picard had a specific goal in mind. Kill a Borg so he can get the device he was looking for to see what their goal was. To do that using bullets achieved his goal.

The Borg, I believe, would have quickly adapted to regular bullets so it never would have worked as an overall solution.

But against a single Borg or two it was fine. Phasers weren't working anymore and he quickly came up with the idea he did.
 
The point was that the Borg had certainly been perforated with bullets and sliced with blades at some point in their history. Either they "forgot" their adaptations to those things, or they could not adapt to kinetic weapons the way they could to directed energy ones. If the latter, all Picard had to do was outfit his people with TR-116 rifles. Many here have suggested the former, which is a valid explanation.
 
That's what we do here. :techman:

Ha-ha. Yeah, true. I'm guilty of that myself.

Sometimes it's helpful to break it down to the simplest explanation, and in this case it was just that Captain Picard had a specific goal (though he did seem to enjoy it a bit, but that's beside the point I suppose).

But overall, I don't think bullets would have been effective for long. Picard caught them off guard, probably because the Borg are not capable of independent thought and one weakness they have is the inability to anticipate. It's a short term weakness though, they'd adapt quickly making using real boots a moot point in short order. I'd guess it might work on no more than 4 or 5 Borg before they adapted sufficient shielding to negate them.

And let's not forget, the Borg can care less about losing a few drones. So prevention to save their numbers does not factor in.
 
Either they "forgot" their adaptations to those things, or they could not adapt to kinetic weapons the way they could to directed energy ones.
No, there are other options too, more than one actually, presented in-thread already. One option is that perhaps Borg drones don't enter a potential combat situation with all possible adaptations pre-loaded and that the Borg determine what's needed based on what happens to the first drones in. Multiple other possibilities have also been mentioned.
 
The presumption is that Borg cannot adapt to simple kinetic weapons: half-ounce chunks of lead moving at 275 m/s.

Why didn't Picard outfit his people with weapons of that type? Something like the TR-116 seen in "Field of Fire", or even something older like an AK-47?

I think there are a few reasons for Picard not doing this.

1. The use of uncivilized weapons whose only purpose is to kill is completely inconsistent with the values and ideology of Starfleet.

2. Starfleet officers are trained in the use of energy weapons, whose use and functionality is inconsistent with kinetic projectile weaponry. The physics of phased particle beams is completely contrary to those of firearms, lacking recoil, drift over distance, a reliance on specific penetration values, etcetera.

There is actually a good scene on "Enterprise" where they demonstrate how the crew must adapt to the differences between the standard EM-33 pistols and the brand new phase pistols.

(A phase pistol is loaded, and a target projector is set up.)

REED: You have a ten second firing window. Ready?
HOSHI: Ready.
REED: Go.

(He pushes a button on the PADD, the 3D target starts moving around and Hoshi fires a lot of shots in its direction.)

REED: Time.
HOSHI: Any better?
REED: Your hit to miss ratio is still below fifty percent. If those had been live rounds, you'd have blown out two or three bulkheads.
HOSHI: I never had this much trouble with the EM-33.
REED: This is an entirely new weapon. Unlike the EM-33 you don't have to compensate for particle drift. Just point straight at the target, and try and keep your shoulders relaxed. It's hard to aim accurately when you're tense.

-- ENT: Sleeping Dogs

There are even more differences between a modern firearm and a phaser than there are between the EM-33 and a phase pistol. This is why you don't engage dangerous opponents with unfamiliar weapons you are poorly (or un) trained in. It is not only less effective, and dangerous to you, but it is also dangerous to your allies.

3. Even if they MAY be ineffective against the drone's personal shields (and it is an uncertain thing at best), phasers still maintain a greater amount of versatility than a modern firearm, allowing officers more options in and out of combat.

I don't think I agree with this. Adapting to energy weapons is more of a software adaptation, things like shield harmonics and other Treknobabble handwavium. Adapting to taking a slug is more like a hardware adaptation/refit.

I agree with this. It's been shown numerous times that energy shields can be modulated with a few button presses to make them more effective against attacks that are currently penetrating them. Geordi's metaphasic shielding, for instance, is loaded in moments and IMMEDIATELY allows Enterprise to enter the corona of a star with no negative side effects.

CRUSHER: If we had metaphasic shielding, we could enter the sun's corona but the Borg ship wouldn't be able to follow. Can you bring the program online?
BARNABY: I can, but we have no way of knowing if the shields will hold.
TAITT: Sir, hull temperature is rising. Now at twelve thousand degrees C. Radiation level nearing ten thousand rads.

(A Borg phaser blast hits)

CRUSHER: Report.
TAITT: Shields at sixty two percent.
CRUSHER: Lieutenant, activate the metaphasic program. It's our best shot.
BARNABY: Aye, sir.
TAITT: Hull temperature is critical. We can't withstand this heat much longer.
BARNABY: Program is online. Engaging metaphasic shield now.
TAITT: Hull temperature dropping. Down to seven thousand degrees.
CRUSHER: Maintain course.
BARNABY: The Borg ship has broken off pursuit.
CRUSHER: All stop.

TNG: Descent Pt. II

If they're capable of adapting to simple kinetic weaponry, shouldn't it have happened long ago? Or do they forget over time?

As Ben Kenobi taught us, this (like most things) is a matter of perspective. We think of the loss of individuals in an army as just that -- the loss of INDIVIDUALS, the loss of a distinct personality that cannot be replaced. To the Borg, drones are neither individual nor irreplaceable. Losing a drone, or even a hundred drones affects the Collective no more than losing a strand of hair would affect those of us who aren't Yang Xiao-Long.

On top of this, even with a vulnerability to kinetic (read physical) impacts, the chance of a drone (stronger and more durable than even Vulcans and Klingons) losing against another lifeform in melee combat is minimal at best, and the drone itself needs maybe a second of contact in order to assimilate its opponent (a distinct possibility within arm's reach.)

Phasers (and similar weapons) on the other hand are primarily used at mid to long ranges, which would prevent the drone from getting within proximity of its target in order to begin assimilation (its primary objective) if it were vulnerable to them. Further, a phaser strike against an unshielded target need not strike a critical area in order to be effective, unlike a physical blow.

As a result of these various factors, drone's shields are configured to deal with the one serious threat to their being and to their OBJECTIVE as a whole -- energy weapons -- and not to protect against the nearly non-existent threat of physical weapons. After all, in the 24 Century, most species rely on the former, and any species still utilizing kinetic projectile weaponry is likely too primitive for the Borg to assimilate to begin with.

Picard called them holographic bullets [http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie8.html]:

PICARD: I disengaged the safety protocols. Without them even a holographic bullet can kill.​

I think Picard's words here could easily be interpreted to mean bullets generated by the holo-deck as opposed to bullets that are made of light. It is not uncommon for a person shorten their phrasing in order to make a statement less clumsily expressed, especially when talking to someone wholly unfamiliar with the technology in question. It seems unlikely Picard would say "Without them even a bullet created by the holodeck, which is actually replicated matter, can kill," even if that is what he meant.

Further, we have direct statements and indications from the franchise on other occasions that holodecks function via a combination of transporter and replicator technology, and that most of what we see is genuine reconfigured matter (with the obvious exception of the characters generated within.)

Riker : These simulations seem so real.
Data : Much of it is. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an energy beam and then back…
Riker : Yes. Rocks and vegetation have simpler patterns.
Data : Correct, sir.

Moments later, we see proof that matter is created within as Wesley Crusher is still dripping wet from falling into the stream when he leaves the holodeck, causing him to assure Captain Picard that he'll find something to clean it up with.

TNG: Encounter at Farpoint

That the holodeck can produce physical objects which can exist outside its confines is not really in doubt, since we’ve already seen it happen repeatedly -- The Big Goodbye's lipstick on Picard's cheek, the snowball thrown into the corridor in Angel One, and Moriarty's drawing in Elementary, Dear Data for example.

So the crux of the matter is the question "Does the holodeck create actual bullets or does it only create illusory light projections contained within forcefields?"

In The Big Goodbye we see Enterprise's 20th Century historian Whalen is shot and severely injured by the holographic character Leech, showing the firearms to be good approximations of the weapons they are recreations of, and just as dangerous too. Unfortunately, we cannot determine based on what is seen if this is the result of a bullet or a forcefield projection penetrating his body.

Thankfully, the Voyager episode The Killing Game provides us with a much more definitive answer to this question when Seven of Nine and Neelix are shot to death in a World War II simulation being run by the Hirogen without its safety protocols.

[Sickbay]

(The EMH is assisting the Hirogen medic in treating Seven of Nine. Neelix is on another bio-bed.)

MEDIC: This neural interface has been damaged.
EMH: That's because it took a direct hit when one of your bullets grazed the base of her skull.
MEDIC: I'll provide you with another. Install it.
EMH: Not until I've repaired her injuries.
MEDIC: How long?
EMH: She has two fractured vertebrae and a punctured lung. Another hour at least.
MEDIC: Him?
EMH: I've stabilised his vital systems, but he still has bullet fragments lodged in his shoulder.

Neelix could not have bullet fragments lodged in his shoulder after being removed from the holodeck unless the holodeck had used matter conversion to replicate ACTUAL BULLETS for the firearms.

The Borg, explicitly capable of carrying highly effective anti-phaser armor, choose to be vulnerable to phasers. And to bullets. And to wrestling grips. Initially.
...
Is that

a) a doctrinal choice...
b) a practical choice...
c) a performance issue...

Personally, I've always believed that it was a practical calculation on the part of the Collective. We know in Star Trek (as addressed above) that shields can be re-modulated to make them more resistant to different types of matter, energy, and radiation, but since this requires tuning shields to whatever frequency best blocks the assault in question and each assault has its own requirements there is an obvious and logical limit to how many types of energy, matter, and radiation can be protected against with a configuration at one time before opening vulnerability to something from which you had prior been protected.

Or, as you say, even a Swiss Army knife can't have all its blades open at once.

Their ships adapt to torpedoes. I don’t see why drones wouldn’t adapt to bullets. :shrug:

This is a false equivalence. We can't assume that an ability possessed by the Borg Cube's shields is also possessed by the personal shields of a drone without evidence to that fact. They're not necessarily the same thing, nor do they necessarily function in the same manner.

Further, photon torpedoes possess a shield of their own, capable of protecting them long enough to burrow into the center of a sun.

WORF: Photon torpedoes armed and targeted.
PICARD: Fire in sequence.
WORF: First volley released.
DATA: Tracking torpedoes. Entry program confirmed.
WORF: Second volley released.

[Engineering]

LAFORGE: Torpedoes now entering the stellar core.
TIMICIN: Their shields are holding. Guidance systems normal.
LAFORGE: Ignition sequence, six seconds.

The shielding in this instance is NOT a modification either, but rather a consistent (though never prior mentioned) aspect of the torpedo. Timicin and Data specifically discuss the modifications made to it and they are all related to the guidance systems of the device.

DATA: The modifications that you have made to the torpedo's guidance systems are remarkable, Doctor.
TIMICIN: Well, we'll see. They still have to be proved. But now at least it's possible. I'd never dared hope for such a perfect match with our own sun.
PICARD: My only regret is that it took us three years to find a suitable sun after you had first contacted us.

TNG: Half a Life

Of course, it makes sense that torpedoes would have a low level deflector shield at the least -- they could never be fired by a starship with its shields up if they didn't have one, after all. With one, their own shield can be programmed by the ship's computer to match the current shield frequencies of the ship's own shields as each torpedo is fired. Further, they could be diverted from their target(s) by space debris without any protection (we all know how dangerous even specks of dust can be in outer space.)

Taking this into account, it seems to me that the Borg Cube's shields aren't adapting to photon torpedoes at all (and they do seem somewhat effective in First Contact, if not effective enough prior to Picard's assistance) but rather to the ENERGY SHIELD that surrounds the photon torpedoes. This means we have zero evidence that I'm aware of that either cube or drone can adapt to protect themselves from physical impacts.
 
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