What will make it "Star Trek"?

[Orphalesion]

Don't leave out the poetry recital portion of the program, starring that android artist of the avant-garde, Data.

Or Beverly "The Dancing Doctor" Crusher

I'm having bad flashbacks to the Star Wars Christmas Special.

My favourite entry in the Star Wars Franchise Well second favourite, after Space Balls.
(I like Star Wars, but I just really enjoy the unintentional humour of the Holiday Special, and the comedic genius of Space Balls)

 

[Sci]

(while passive aggressively insulting almost forty years of Star Trek history)

Oh honey, let me stop you right there and be clear: For every "Best of Both Worlds," there are two or three episodes like "Night Terrors" or "Power Play" or "The 37s" or "Dragon's Teeth" -- perfectly serviceable but mediocre plot-driven episodes that lack meaningful depth or consequence. Furthermore, the very nature of 1980s episodic action dramas inhibited these shows from reaching their full potential; the fact that storylines had to be resolved within 45 minutes (with the very occasional two-parter) prevented stories from reaching organic lengths, and prevented the realistic consequences of the characters' choices from being felt.

For example, Picard should have been far more traumatized after being assimilated by the Borg than we got the chance to see in one measly episode; that's not something you get over after just a couple of weeks. That's the sort of trauma you wrestle with your entire life. Same thing with the alien probe in "The Inner Light" -- the poor man spent twenty-odd years in that memory re-creation, and then was suddenly ripped out of it after falling in love, raising children, and bonding with grandchildren; losing his family all at once should have had far, far more consequences for Picard's emotional state than we ever saw.

This sort of writing, where characters would go through what ought to be life-altering events, only to wake up unaffected in time for the next episode (with maybe the occasional throwaway mention of their experiences), was endemic throughout the Berman years. The only series that escaped it was DS9 during Ira Steven Behr's tenure as showrunner, and ENT during Manny Coto's tenure.

So, yes, let me be very clear: I am not passive-aggressively insulting almost 40 years of Star Trek. I am overtly saying that all of Star Trek: The Next Generation, all of Star Trek: Voyager, most of Star Trek: Enterprise, and most of the first two seasons of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine are artistically inferior to Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard by virtue of the limitations of the 1980s middlebrow syndicated workplace drama format.

 

[Thomas_Sullivan]

I am not passive-aggressively insulting almost 40 years of Star Trek. I am overtly saying that all of Star Trek: The Next Generation, all of Star Trek: Voyager, most of Star Trek: Enterprise, and most of the first two seasons of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine are artistically inferior to Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard by virtue of the limitations of the 1980s middlebrow syndicated workplace drama format.

Fair enough. You're welcome to your overt and not at all passive aggressive opinion. I'll respect that and leave you to it because I know that we have opinions that are light years apart and I doubt any amount of debating or discussion would be likely to change that. Cheers.

 

[Lord Garth]

Oh honey, let me stop you right there and be clear: For every "Best of Both Worlds," there are two or three episodes like "Night Terrors" or "Power Play" or "The 37s" or "Dragon's Teeth" -- perfectly serviceable but mediocre plot-driven episodes that lack meaningful depth or consequence. Furthermore, the very nature of 1980s episodic action dramas inhibited these shows from reaching their full potential; the fact that storylines had to be resolved within 45 minutes (with the very occasional two-parter) prevented stories from reaching organic lengths, and prevented the realistic consequences of the characters' choices from being felt.

For example, Picard should have been far more traumatized after being assimilated by the Borg than we got the chance to see in one measly episode; that's not something you get over after just a couple of weeks. That's the sort of trauma you wrestle with your entire life. Same thing with the alien probe in "The Inner Light" -- the poor man spent twenty-odd years in that memory re-creation, and then was suddenly ripped out of it after falling in love, raising children, and bonding with grandchildren; losing his family all at once should have had far, far more consequences for Picard's emotional state than we ever saw.

This sort of writing, where characters would go through what ought to be life-altering events, only to wake up unaffected in time for the next episode (with maybe the occasional throwaway mention of their experiences), was endemic throughout the Berman years. The only series that escaped it was DS9 during Ira Steven Behr's tenure as showrunner, and ENT during Manny Coto's tenure.

So, yes, let me be very clear: I am not passive-aggressively insulting almost 40 years of Star Trek. I am overtly saying that all of Star Trek: The Next Generation, all of Star Trek: Voyager, most of Star Trek: Enterprise, and most of the first two seasons of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine are artistically inferior to Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard by virtue of the limitations of the 1980s middlebrow syndicated workplace drama format.

'90s Trek occupies a schizophrenic middle-ground.

In DSC and PIC, everything builds on what came before and follow-up isn't just expected but demanded. In TOS, every episode is self-contained and no one expects there to be any follow-up in a TV series from the '60s. In the first three seasons of TNG, there's a little bit more follow-up than TOS but the '80s weren't much different from the '60s. Almost all of it was self-contained.

Then came the fourth season of TNG in 1990. That's when follow-up episodes multiplied. That's when audiences could start expecting repercussions from one episode to be felt in other episodes and not have it be an isolated incident. And then, when it makes sense that there should be follow-up, there isn't. Like you said about how "The Inner Light" affected Picard. I'd even add how "Hard Time" affected O'Brien in DS9. Then there's The Doctor losing his memories in the third season of VOY, only to have them magically all recovered without explanation a few episodes later. None of those should've been self-contained.

It's why today I prefer that series either be completely serialized or completely episodic. I don't like the '90s approach because you don't know what you should be investing in because you have no idea what they'll follow up on and what they'll just drop or ignore.

It's too easy for people to look back at '90s TV and think "That's how it should be! Take a mixed approach!" But the difference is: now we know what was followed up on and what wasn't. When you don't know, it's frustrating while you're watching it for the first time. And I don't want to see it on Star Trek in 2020.

I know SNW will be going back to episodic, even though it'll have character continuity. So I hope it's smarter about how it follows up on character continuity than TV from 20-30 years ago.

 

[Sci]

'
I know SNW will be going back to episodic, even though it'll have character continuity. So I hope it's smarter about how it follows up on character continuity than TV from 20-30 years ago.

I don't know this with any certainty, but I strongly suspect that SNW will go the Buffy/Doctor Who route of combining an episodic A-plot with serialized B- and C-plots and character arcs that culminate in a semi-serialized mini-arc at the end of the season. That format seems to be the one that allows for both the most creative fulfillment for most writers and that allows for episodic stories.

 

[The Wormhole]

For every "Best of Both Worlds," there are two or three episodes like "Night Terrors" or "Power Play" or "The 37s" or "Dragon's Teeth"

Oh, come on. Dragon's Teeth was actually pretty good. The fact it never got followed up is not a fault of the episode itself.

 

[Paul Weaver]

I like power play and 37s too

 

[Sci]

None of those episodes are bad. They're all perfectly acceptable ways to spend an hour of your time and then barely remember them. Which is what most of Berman-era Star Trek consisted of: C+ or B- episodes that ate an hour of your time and had no further artistic goal or impact.

 

[Orphalesion]

None of those episodes are bad. They're all perfectly acceptable ways to spend an hour of your time and then barely remember them. Which is what most of Berman-era Star Trek consisted of: C+ or B- episodes that ate an hour of your time and had no further artistic goal or impact.

That's in no way exclusive to berman-era Trek.

 

[The Wormhole]

That's in no way exclusive to berman-era Trek.

Maybe not, but the Berman era did stubbornly cling to the concept long after the rest of TV were switching to longer term story arcs.

 

[BillJ]

So, yes, let me be very clear: I am not passive-aggressively insulting almost 40 years of Star Trek. I am overtly saying that all of Star Trek: The Next Generation, all of Star Trek: Voyager, most of Star Trek: Enterprise, and most of the first two seasons of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine are artistically inferior to Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard by virtue of the limitations of the 1980s middlebrow syndicated workplace drama format.

Who decided they were "artistically inferior"? They were one way to do a sci-fi show, Discovery and Picard are another. I don't see one as being "artistically superior" to the other. Just find the 90's stuff more entertaining, which is the whole point of watching a show.

They're all perfectly acceptable ways to spend an hour of your time and then barely remember them.

I remember the 80's/90's/00's Trek far more clearly than the current stuff outside of Lower Decks. Each person is going to have different things that make an impression on them.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I remember the 80's/90's/00's Trek far more clearly than the current stuff outside of Lower Decks. Each person is going to have different things that make an impression on them.

I'm rewatching Voyager for the first time in decades. I'm almost through the second season, and I don't recall having seen half the episodes! Either I didn't actually see the entire seasons (as I've always thought I did) or I've actually forgotten those episodes.

 

[BillJ]

I'm rewatching Voyager for the first time in decades. I'm almost through the second season, and I don't recall having seen half the episodes! Either I didn't actually see the entire seasons (as I've always thought I did) or I've actually forgotten those episodes.

I remember a lot of it ("The Thaw" is one of my favorite Trek episodes), but thought the show got a lot better when Jeri Ryan joined the cast.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I remember a lot of it ("The Thaw" is one of my favorite Trek episodes), but thought the show got a lot better when Jeri Ryan joined the cast.

That's why I like TOS and ENT, less episodes to remember,

 

[Orphalesion]

I will admit there's huge parts of TNG (especially the middle/late seasons, like 4-6), Voyager and DS9 (those are the only non-current Star Trek shows I've seen all episodes of) that I have not a single memory of. But the same is true for Discovery to a lesser extend.
With some stuff, especially if it doesn't provoke (enough of) a emotional response from me, I forget it as soon as I watched it (because it's more current I remember it more, in a few years I probably won't).
I also don't remember much of TOS or ENT, but I haven't seen all episodes of those shows.

 

[Nerys Myk]

TOS is forever burned into my memory from the the time it was The Only Series

 

[BillJ]

I would rather watch "Night Terrors" or "Power Play" than most of CBS' live action stuff so far. That stuff is just geared more to my personal taste.

 

[Orphalesion]

I definitely would rather watch Night Terrors or Power Play than Picard. I just don't like that show.
And tbh I'm also more likely to re-watch Night Terrors or Power Play than Discovery. Because Discovery is serialized, and while I like serialized show, if I just need something to wind down before bed or stuff, I rather watch a self-contained episode then something serialized.

TOS is forever burned into my memory from the the time it was The Only Series

Well I wasn't around during that time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Maybe if I had been, it would be similar for me.

 

[at Quark's]

For example, Picard should have been far more traumatized after being assimilated by the Borg than we got the chance to see in one measly episode; that's not something you get over after just a couple of weeks. That's the sort of trauma you wrestle with your entire life. Same thing with the alien probe in "The Inner Light" -- the poor man spent twenty-odd years in that memory re-creation, and then was suddenly ripped out of it after falling in love, raising children, and bonding with grandchildren; losing his family all at once should have had far, far more consequences for Picard's emotional state than we ever saw.

I always rationalized it by considering the amazing level of psychotherapeutics reached in the 24th century. If, in the 23rd century, they already progressed so far that there was only a single mental health facility required for the last few remaining cases of criminally incorrigible mentally insane, and believed they were on the cusp of inventing a medicine that would do away with mental illness altogether, imagine what 24th century psychotherapeutics would be able to do, with much more mundane "garden variety" psychological issues such as being turned into a spider, a Borg, living 20 years in an environment that turns out to be an illusion and killing your only prison mate in the process, being posessed by an evil criminal alien that should have been dead for 200 years, etc ... (Of course, for this assumption to work we have to blissfully ignore all counterindications in Trek since then, but usually, us Trek fans have become quite adept at that). Oh, and of course they are "evolved" human beings anyway, better and smarter than us, somehow, too, of course

 

[Sci]

I always rationalized it by considering the amazing level of psychotherapeutics reached in the 24th century. If, in the 23rd century, they already progressed so far that there was only a single mental health facility required for the last few remaining cases of criminally incorrigible mentally insane, and believed they were on the cusp of inventing a medicine that would do away with mental illness altogether, imagine what 24th century psychotherapeutics would be able to do, with much more mundane "garden variety" psychological issues such as being turned into a spider, a Borg, living 20 years in an environment that turns out to be an illusion and killing your only prison mate in the process, being posessed by an evil criminal alien that should have been dead for 200 years, etc ... (Of course, for this assumption to work we have to blissfully ignore all counterindications in Trek since then, but usually, us Trek fans have become quite adept at that). Oh, and of course they are "evolved" human beings anyway, better and smarter than us, somehow, too, of course

I mean, you can find a plot device to rationalize almost any low-quality creative decision in-universe. It's still a bad creative decision that prevented the show from living up to its full artistic potential.

I would rather watch "Night Terrors" or "Power Play" than most of CBS' live action stuff so far. That stuff is just geared more to my personal taste.

Well, you do you, but to my eyes that reads as roughly the same as arguing that Bye Bye Birdie is a better musical than Next to Normal or Hamilton.