STAR TREK VI (FILTERED)

[STEPhon IT]

I thought the thread was quite good, I recall PaddyRyan1706 inviting my comments from a different thread which were criticisms of Nicholas Meyer and I responded I thought his thread was more of an appreciation thread. I would like to honor the movie with more of the same light and appreciation and some intrigue from that political thriller. We know it's short comings and inconsistencies, lets try to discuss more about ideas driven in the movie and what was the possible results after the outcome of the Enterprise saving the conference from being an interstellar catastrophe.

While the trial of Kirk and McCoy was going on, the Excelsior had to be doing their own investigation of the conspiracy and later discovering where the next peace conference would occur. Since they were in Alpha Quadrant where would be some of the places they could've traveled to start getting clues to what was going on?

Valeris couldn't have been the only Vulcan to have some concerns about the peace between the UFP and the Klingons, and there was an episode of VOY where Tuvok wasn't in favor of it, so this idea had ripple effects throughout the galaxy. Lets try not to involve fantasy-fan what if's about Saavik Alley because that's not the point and not the arena for this thread, just the manner the Vulcan society could have some strong resentment of the historic occasion.

I could imagine the intensity of the situation beholden to both sides including those powers' allies, what are your thoughts about the movie and it's internal politics?

 

[Peach Wookiee]

I can imagine the debating societies of Vulcan had quite a few fascinating discussions on the issue. And they possibly examined their own prejudices against other species.

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

What's become obvious in hindsight to me is that in many ways the central story could have been a whole season of Trek television just by itself. Given all the various parties involved, you could explore so much ground with how not just those within Starfleet or the Federation would react to the idea of a permanent peace, but others as well.

Imagine episodes that had the likes of Kor, Kang, and Kodos all taking the news of their mortal enemy now becoming an ally and how much it disrupted politics on Qo'noS. Or perhaps the immediate efforts of Starfleet espionage and intelligence against the Romulans what with the latter now facing a former/current ally like the Empire aligned with their greatest enemy in the Federation.

Of course within Starfleet, there's an entire narrative of how the more frontier oriented and somewhat militarized ships could be realizing how they likely will be phased out or shifted towards areas near the Neutral Zone, disrupting the lives they had grown comfortable with. That could could be paired also with an internal growth of the exploration and science divisions now feeling they are in the best position to push for their areas to be emphasized given the new peace.

Again, there's so much one could do with it, that its a pity that part of Trek history is largely limited to one movie and a Voyager episode.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the biggest speculation would be in Starfleet itself-what does the fleet look like now that we are no longer facing imminent threat from the Klingons, which has been going on for centuries. That's a huge change in policy that would merit a lot of discussion from the higher ups in the Council and admiralty.

Also, an opportunity for people like Dr. Marcus, who regard Starfleet as "the military" to assert more scientific pursuits with Starfleet assets. Perhaps Vulcans would provide similar rational, noting the need to be investigating for phenomenon like the whale probe rather than just reacting to it.

 

[STEPhon IT]

What's become obvious in hindsight to me is that in many ways the central story could have been a whole season of Trek television just by itself. Given all the various parties involved, you could explore so much ground with how not just those within Starfleet or the Federation would react to the idea of a permanent peace, but others as well.

Imagine episodes that had the likes of Kor, Kang, and Kodos all taking the news of their mortal enemy now becoming an ally and how much it disrupted politics on Qo'noS. Or perhaps the immediate efforts of Starfleet espionage and intelligence against the Romulans what with the latter now facing a former/current ally like the Empire aligned with their greatest enemy in the Federation.

Of course within Starfleet, there's an entire narrative of how the more frontier oriented and somewhat militarized ships could be realizing how they likely will be phased out or shifted towards areas near the Neutral Zone, disrupting the lives they had grown comfortable with. That could could be paired also with an internal growth of the exploration and science divisions now feeling they are in the best position to push for their areas to be emphasized given the new peace.

Again, there's so much one could do with it, that its a pity that part of Trek history is largely limited to one movie and a Voyager episode.

With what you mentioned could be a wonderful introduction to Betazed, what if that world was surprisingly allies with the Klingons? I mean, the Klingons already established they had mind-fucking weapons like "Mind-Sifters". Who's to know, maybe that weapon was an inspiration?

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

With what you mentioned could be a wonderful introduction to Betazed, what if that world was surprisingly allies with the Klingons? I mean, the Klingons already established they had mind-fucking weapons like "Mind-Sifters".

There's probably a potential story of the Federation giving support and/or trading a planet in exchange for the Klingon's withdrawal from Betazed, with the paranoia about the Starfleet weaponizing their telepathic abilities being a source of contention for negotiations. Perhaps even working in the controversy about the Genesis Device into the negotiation discussion with disagreement about what the creation of such a device was meant to do.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I think the biggest speculation would be in Starfleet itself-what does the fleet look like now that we are no longer facing imminent threat from the Klingons, which has been going on for centuries. That's a huge change in policy that would merit a lot of discussion from the higher ups in the Council and admiralty.

Also, an opportunity for people like Dr. Marcus, who regard Starfleet as "the military" to assert more scientific pursuits with Starfleet assets. Perhaps Vulcans would provide similar rational, noting the need to be investigating for phenomenon like the whale probe rather than just reacting to it.

I know this would be a Star Wars gimmick but what if Carol Marcus sided with the conspirators or her team found a new site to develop another Genesis Project, but was by the border of Klingon space? Yikes, that may have been too much to handle with the crisis so hot at hand.

All in all, its a great thought, fireproof78.

 

[Lord Garth]

I loved the movie. I think it ties itself a little bit too closely to the end of the Cold War happening at the same time IRL, but it doesn't matter when I'm watching the movie.

The soundtrack for TUC is still my favorite of the entire film series.

 

[Lord Garth]

Double-Post because this deserves its own post and it just occurred to me:

When I saw the movie in the theater, when Scotty was in the ready room (or wherever it was) all by himself, and he heard the boots in the air duct, for a split second I thought to myself, "Oh, no! Is Scotty in on it?!"

Did anyone else think that?

 

[Quinton]

Double-Post because this deserves its own post and it just occurred to me:

When I saw the movie in the theater, when Scotty was in the ready room (or wherever it was) all by himself, and he heard the boots in the air duct, for a split second I thought to myself, "Oh, no! Is Scotty in on it?!"

Did anyone else think that?

Oh god. I did.

I was like 4. But I definitely did.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Double-Post because this deserves its own post and it just occurred to me:

When I saw the movie in the theater, when Scotty was in the ready room (or wherever it was) all by himself, and he heard the boots in the air duct, for a split second I thought to myself, "Oh, no! Is Scotty in on it?!"

Did anyone else think that?

I believe Scotty was inside the "Officers' Mess" and no, I didn't think for one second he was in on it. Now, if Scotty was by Kirk's door when the good Captain recited his very thin incriminating Log entry, then maybe, MAYBE I would've suspected him. Besides that, during the battle sequence the Bird of Prey fired a torpedo which the SFX team presented a visual where the torpedo is followed right into the Enterprise's hull - saucer section! The blast tore up multiple decks I presume and suspected parts of the shell scattered on impact and obliterated the Officers' Mess.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Azetbur, the Acting Klingon Chancellor, she had some large shoes to fill after the assassination of her father. She seemed pretty cold mannered and seemed to a character who could make some strong changes with iron hand. She seemed to be an appropriate successor to the Klingons and I'm sure there would be measures to protect her, I was wondering what measures she could proceed in establishing the new Klingon doctrine and what steps she would have to make for her people to adjust to the transition with Starfleet, the Federation and its allies of planets?

 

[fireproof78]

I know this would be a Star Wars gimmick but what if Carol Marcus sided with the conspirators or her team found a new site to develop another Genesis Project, but was by the border of Klingon space? Yikes, that may have been too much to handle with the crisis so hot at hand.

All in all, its a great thought, fireproof78.

Here's my thoughts with this, especially with Marcus. First of all, there might be some factionism within the Federation citizens regarding Klingons and making peace. Some of those citizens might be less than thrilled at such a prospect and seek to establish their own more isolated place, to establish a base for themselves outside of these "peace talks."

Enter Carol Marcus who is tired of it all, especially after David died, and she decides to try to recreate Genesis, both in his memory, and a bit of a middle finger to the Klingons. So, her and the conspirators have a mutual interest in building a new space, but, as you postulate, probably near to the Klingon border to support the conspirators own ends. Marcus may just want to have the success despite all the losses.

Interesting.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Here's my thoughts with this, especially with Marcus. First of all, there might be some factionism within the Federation citizens regarding Klingons and making peace. Some of those citizens might be less than thrilled at such a prospect and seek to establish their own more isolated place, to establish a base for themselves outside of these "peace talks."

Enter Carol Marcus who is tired of it all, especially after David died, and she decides to try to recreate Genesis, both in his memory, and a bit of a middle finger to the Klingons. So, her and the conspirators have a mutual interest in building a new space, but, as you postulate, probably near to the Klingon border to support the conspirators own ends. Marcus may just want to have the success despite all the losses.

Interesting.

What exploded in TWOK was not the finished product so I doubt all of that research would just be tossed away, scientist as passionate as Carol would pursue this and would see it to completion. I agree, she would not be pleased to what happened to her son David and how it happened. Making Genesis Deux near a needy Klingon world would be a big middle finger and finishing it would be rubbing their noses in it when it's offered everyone but the Klingons. LMAO!!!

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

It would make for an interesting conflict between Carol and Kirk when the latter has managed to get beyond his issues with the Klingons while the former is determined to make Genesis functional so that her colleagues and her son will have not died for nothing.

Carol: They were good people Jim. Not just David; everyone on Regula One threw everything they had into the project. What that ship of yours was to you, Genesis was to us.

Kirk: I know. And I understand there's still a benefit from the work you did.

Carol: There is. That's why I have to pick up where my team left off now.

Kirk: Why? What's so important about working on Genesis at this moment when its risking a war with the Klingons?

Carol: Because I'm not going to have our son be remembered as the man who wanted to create life and instead made a doomsday weapon.

Kirk: Carol...

Carol: It took me years to accept he was gone, but I did. But I will not accept that all the work he spent his life on being put aside because of his mistakes. You said you wanted to honor him. Well so do I.

Kirk: ...If talks break down with the Klingons, you and all of this won't be safe.

Carol: There's no such thing as safe in this galaxy, Jim. You understand that better than anyone.

 

[STEPhon IT]

It would make for an interesting conflict between Carol and Kirk when the latter has managed to get beyond his issues with the Klingons while the former is determined to make Genesis functional so that her colleagues and her son will have not died for nothing.

Carol: They were good people Jim. Not just David; everyone on Regula One threw everything they had into the project. What that ship of yours was to you, Genesis was to us.

Kirk: I know. And I understand there's still a benefit from the work you did.

Carol: There is. That's why I have to pick up where my team left off now.

Kirk: Why? What's so important about working on Genesis at this moment when its risking a war with the Klingons?

Carol: Because I'm not going to have our son be remembered as the man who wanted to create life and instead made a doomsday weapon.

Kirk: Carol...

Carol: It took me years to accept he was gone, but I did. But I will not accept that all the work he spent his life on being put aside because of his mistakes. You said you wanted to honor him. Well so do I.

Kirk: ...If talks break down with the Klingons, you and all of this won't be safe.

Carol: There's no such thing as safe in this galaxy, Jim. You understand that better than anyone.

JazsBrokenHeart, the voices for Kirk and Carol Marcus is spot on, and what I also like is you and fireproof78 is making Carol a wildcard character. She's keeping her politics under the vest and for now all we know she's revealing it's all about the project and her son's legacy. Such a resurrection of the project could create a stream of criticism and extend the continuing peace talks between the two powers. It would definitely be some interesting times for TOS characters and their counterparts.

 

[fireproof78]

I think one of the big things that isn't really explored is the variety of political factions that could exist within the Federation. I think Marcus would be one such wild card who is loyal very much to her ideas of crafting a new world, and go where she can with that research, and to hell with political costs.

I wonder if there were people who felt very disenfranchised by the ongoing political tension, with no real interest in either side but wanting people to just shut up about it or be left alone to do their own thing. I think we could see a lot of the research minded who don't want to devote to the war effort but want to continue on.

Marcus' own personal motivations would probably drive past political.

 

[Orphalesion]

Azetbur, the Acting Klingon Chancellor, she had some large shoes to fill after the assassination of her father. She seemed pretty cold mannered and seemed to a character who could make some strong changes with iron hand. She seemed to be an appropriate successor to the Klingons and I'm sure there would be measures to protect her, I was wondering what measures she could proceed in establishing the new Klingon doctrine and what steps she would have to make for her people to adjust to the transition with Starfleet, the Federation and its allies of planets?

Azetbur is one of my favorite aspects of the movie. I always wonder what position she held in the Klingon mind and the history narrative of her people? Was she looked upon as a heroic figure by subsequent generations, who did what she had to do to save her people and the culture? Or was she looked upon as weak and "blamed" for the peace with the Federation (which even by the time of TNG wasn't popular with all Klingons)?
It's interesting to think that she might have become a sort of Iron Lady who perhaps forced a lot of changes and reforms in her Empire. Maybe she was even the reason why by the 24th century Klingon women were barred from serving in the council (and probably from being chancellor?)
If both of those things are true then Azetbur would parallel Catherine the Great of Russia, who likewise was a strong rule who forced many reforms and who was the reason why, after her women were barred from inheriting the Russian throne.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Azetbur is one of my favorite aspects of the movie. I always wonder what position she held in the Klingon mind and the history narrative of her people? Was she looked upon as a heroic figure by subsequent generations, who did what she had to do to save her people and the culture? Or was she looked upon as weak and "blamed" for the peace with the Federation (which even by the time of TNG wasn't popular with all Klingons)?
It's interesting to think that she might have become a sort of Iron Lady who perhaps forced a lot of changes and reforms in her Empire. Maybe she was even the reason why by the 24th century Klingon women were barred from serving in the council (and probably from being chancellor?)
If both of those things are true then Azetbur would parallel Catherine the Great of Russia, who likewise was a strong rule who forced many reforms and who was the reason why, after her women were barred from inheriting the Russian throne.

That is a fresh side of looking at Azetbur comparing her to such a monumental figure. Judging from what had happened to Praxas and how the Klingons in TSFS, and TTF had a pirate type personality she would've had to make some drastic changes for her civilization to survive. Forcing the issue those ways were over and the Federation has the numbers to completely eliminate Klingons who act like that; there are Starfleet brass who still has animosity towards them and may have itchy trigger fingers on their phasers and won't tolerate it.

She may have been the reason for Klingon women in the next century to be left out of the council and I would like to believe, non-retcon standing, she was the reason for the formation of the Klingon Council. In order to form a more organized cabinet to have some structure in treaties and a balance in political judgement. She would've initiated Klingon liaisons integrating with Federation sciences, research, and partially into the UFP military and she would have to invite Starfleet and allies to work and live inside Klingon worlds; it would be a bold venture for Klingons to go through and it would not be easy nor comfortable.

I could see a lot of personal conflict between the liaisons and the allies they're forced to work with, some conflicts maybe hostile and I'm not talking solely about Klingons. Remember it was humans who murdered Azetbur's father, and I'm sure they're cells who may want to light a fire to continue or instigate the very bumpy transition which would only benefit the survival of her race. Catherine the Great of Russia is an interesting allegory.

 

[Phoenix219]

Here's my thoughts with this, especially with Marcus. First of all, there might be some factionism within the Federation citizens regarding Klingons and making peace. Some of those citizens might be less than thrilled at such a prospect and seek to establish their own more isolated place, to establish a base for themselves outside of these "peace talks."

Enter Carol Marcus who is tired of it all, especially after David died, and she decides to try to recreate Genesis, both in his memory, and a bit of a middle finger to the Klingons. So, her and the conspirators have a mutual interest in building a new space, but, as you postulate, probably near to the Klingon border to support the conspirators own ends. Marcus may just want to have the success despite all the losses.

Interesting.

I wonder what the Prime version of her father was doing around this time? Could he have been involved in TUC conspiracies?