Spoilers Star Trek: Lower Decks 1x02 - "Envoys"

[Jadeb]

That's 100% the same thing that was said about Burnham and it is as true now as it was true then.

I think this show, however, has an artistic vision that Discovery lacks. It knows what it wants to be: a goofy, nerdy love letter to TNG by a big fan. It's fine to dislike the execution, or to not find it funny, but after two episodes, I already have more confidence that these characters will grow and develop in meaningful ways than Discovery has given me after two full seasons.

 

[fireproof78]

It's funny to be is the reasons I like Mariner are similar to the reasons I like Burnham. One has jokes and one doesn't. Both resonate weirdly well with me...

 

[Tim Thomason]

They thankfully don't play up any “exotic sexy amazon” factor with Mariner as they were prone to do with Jadzia on Deep Space Nine. Viewers who found Jadzia to be “a cool, sexy woman who also knew how to be 'one of the guys'” might find Mariner to be too challenging and boisterous.

I'm not sure. Mariner does have a tendency to run around with her cleavage showing, unlike any other character, spent a portion of the first episode in her underwear, and has been spouting out details of her sex life. If this was live-action Tawny Newsome, there might be more discussion on it, as opposed to just a simple cartoon figure.

But, you know, we have about 146 hours of Jadzia to dig through versus less than 1 hour of Beckett.

 

[BillJ]

Didn't Burnham need to be rescued by the Discovery in the very 2nd episode of DIS when her prison shuttle malfunctioned and DIS tractor beamed them in, or else they would have eventually been asphyxiated?

Didn't Pike need to save her in Season 2 Ep 1 (Brother) when she became disabled on that asteroid?

I just found Burnham incredibly dull. Tough to like the overall show when the center of it is that dull.

 

[Muji]

I'm out.

Really? That’s great news. That saves everyone a lot of time. Thanks.

 

[matthunter]

Congratulations on a funnier joke than anything the "lower decks" people have come up with in two episodes.

And I'm not being sarcastic.

Trust me, I didn't think you were.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I just found Burnham incredibly dull. Tough to like the overall show when the center of it is that dull.

I agree that she is not a great character. I'm just commenting on the implication that Burnham has never been in a position that she needed someone else to save her.

I've often said (on the DIS forum, where maybe this belongs) that my main problem with Burnham is that she's always off doing things herself without involving the rest of the team. It's like she sees a problem, and instead of getting a group of smart Star Fleet people people together in order to figure out how to best address the issue, she just ducks out and attempts to solve it herself.

Granted, this is also identified as an in-universe criticism of Burnham, as Spock has lamented to her that she does not need to carry heavy burdens by herself, and that she should allow others to help her solve problems. However, that being the case, I think it pains me more that it seems the writers intentionally WANT her to be this way.

The best part of an ensemble cast TV show is the way the ensemble works together to solve a problem. That working together plot device can be a way to show chemistry among the main characters, and allows for fun a clever dialogue as the bounce things off of each other in the process of solving the problem the plot has presented.

But Burnham's need (again, seemingly intentional by the writers, unfortunately) to attempt to shoulder the burdens and solve problems by herself, practically shunning others, really tears apart any hope to grow that chemistry among the cast of characters. There is some chemistry among the rest of the crew, but it either does not include Burnham or it does include Burnham in a forced and non-organic way. The way to make it organic is have Burnahm be an intrinsic part of the entire gang when problems are being solved.

 

[fireproof78]

Ah, that's why I identify with Burnham so much. Perfect.

Yup, keep going writers.

 

[BillJ]

I agree that she is not a great character. I'm just commenting on the implication that Burnham has never been in a position that she needed someone else to save her.

I've often said (on the DIS, where maybe this belongs) that my main problem with Burnham is that she's always off doing things herself without involving the rest of the team. It's like she sees a problem, and instead of getting a group of smart Star Fleet people people together in order to figure out how to best address the issue, she just ducks out and attempts to solve it herself.

Granted, this is also identified as an in-universe criticism of Burnham, as Spock has lamented to her that she does not need to carry heavy burdens by herself, and that she should allow others to help her solve problems. However, that being the case, I think it pains me more that it seems the writers intentionally WANT her to be this way.

The best part of an ensemble cast TV show is the way the ensemble works together to solve a problem. That working together plot device can be a way to show chemistry among the main characters, and allows for fun a clever dialogue as the bounce things off of each other in the process of solving the problem the plot has presented.

But Burnham's need (again, seemingly intentional by the writers, unfortunately) to attempt to shoulder the burdens and solve problems by herself, practically shunning others, really tears apart any hope to grow that chemistry among the cast of characters. There is some chemistry among the rest of the crew, but it either does not include Burnham or it does include Burnham in a forced and non-organic way. The way to make it organic is have Burnahm be an intrinsic part of the entire gang when problems are being solved.

I think I would’ve enjoyed the show a lot more if Burnham had been a bit closer to a Jadzia Dax/Beckett Mariner type of character. Though that ship has sailed. I do want to give the show another chance with the changes they’ve made for season three.

 

[marillion]

Gave it an 8. Definitely better than Ep. 1... I didn't like the A plot resolution. I liked it better when

Spoiler

Boimler was actually the hero it wasn't all a Mariner set up.

 

[Kevman7987]

I'm not sure. Mariner does have a tendency to run around with her cleavage showing, unlike any other character, spent a portion of the first episode in her underwear, and has been spouting out details of her sex life. If this was live-action Tawny Newsome, there might be more discussion on it, as opposed to just a simple cartoon figure.

Mariner spent only slightly more time in her underwear than Boimler and that was only because spider-cow swallowed his underwear and he was naked.

The amount of cleavage Mariner shows is only because her undershirt shows a little bit and she's too much of an "outlaw" to bother keeping her uniform fastened. Heck, real world women's clothes usually show more.

The amount she talks about her sex life is way less sex talk than you'd find in similar cartoons like Rick & Morty or Final Space.

This show is much more tame than similar cartoons.

 

[eschaton]

The difference between Beckett Mariner and Michael Burnham is show vs. tell.

Mariner thinks she's awesome, but no one else really does. We see she's awesome because the series is showing her doing awesome things.

In contrast, we know that Burnham is awesome because everyone around her can't help but compliment her.

They both think they're always right and have a hard time following orders though.

 

[fireproof78]

I am glad to have Mariner as a comparison though. A lot of these things are illustrating what I enjoyed with Burnham (and Discovery by extension) but haven't been able to put my finger on the whys. Burnham is a character who intrigues me because those struggles and fobiles I feel very much relate to my own life.

She perhaps would do better on a not Star Trek show where the ensemble expectation is not so heavy but her and Saru's dynamic works so well for me that its hard to imagine outside of Trek.

 

[Rhodan]

I must say I still despise the cold opening... but as for the rest of the episode, I would say, here the show found it´s footing, showing how trek poking the fun on itself can be creative...

7

 

[Tuskin38]

The Ferengi was voiced by Tom Kenny, AKA Spongebob

Plus a ton of other voices in various series over the last 30 years

 

[thribs]

The cold opening was odd. I assume a later episode will continue the open plot thread of the entity inside her mother.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

The cold opening was odd. I assume a later episode will continue the open plot thread of the entity inside her mother.

Yeah -- I'm not big on cold openings that have little or no connection to the rest of the episode. Brooklyn Nine-Nine is like that. In the 7 seasons that show has been on so far, I think there has maybe been a very small handful of cold openings that related to the plot of the episode. Just about all of them have been stand-alone gigs.

Stand-alone gags are fine if we know to expect them. However, I think the expectation of many LD viewers is that what happens in the cold openings needs to have a resolution or relate directly to the episode plot.

Although I'm not totally fond that idea, I've grown used to it on Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and I no longer expect the cold opening gag to matter to the episode or be addressed by it, even if the gag left us hanging a bit.

By the way , Brooklyn Nine-Nine IMHO is a very funny show that Lower Decks can emulate. B99 is silly, absurd, irreverent, and sometimes requires suspension of belief (even in-universe) -- but it is also a show with characters who have chemistry, generally care for each other, and interact in cleverly funny ways.

 

[BillJ]

I am glad to have Mariner as a comparison though. A lot of these things are illustrating what I enjoyed with Burnham (and Discovery by extension) but haven't been able to put my finger on the whys. Burnham is a character who intrigues me because those struggles and fobiles I feel very much relate to my own life.

For me, Mariner points to the biggest problem with Burnham and Discovery, there’s no real joy in anything. The show, overall, is a dour experience.

 

[fireproof78]

For me, Mariner points to the biggest problem with Burnham and Discovery, there’s no real joy in anything. The show, overall, is a dour experience.

I mean, that's fair, but I don't read it that way. I think there is a different kind of joy, one that is less effervescent and more satisfaction in their job. Certainly I don't walk away feeling dour, so that might be my own subjective interpretation.

 

[Tuskin38]

I think there was a Lurian in the bar fight.

There might also be a species only seen in Star Trek 4

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