Longevity of Classes

[DarthTimon]

It seems that the Federation has kept some classes of ship in service for nearly a century - the Excelsior class launched in 2290 and ships of that class were still in active service during the Dominion War, nearly 100 years later. Same can be said of the Miranda class. Yet others didn't stick around - the Ambassador class for example, which appeared to launch in the 2340s, was dropped before the Dominion War, a short lifespan for the class, considering previous efforts from Starfleet. Any thoughts as to why Starfleet does what it does?

 

[Leathco]

Honestly, there aren't many classes that make it that long. If you look at the Battle of the Binary Stars, NONE of the classes there survive to the TOS Kirk era, in which the only class around for the most part is the Constitution. I would say classes living that long is outside the norm. The earliest example would be the Miranda, followed by the Oberth class and Excelsior classes. These three classes could be considered the start of a new style of ship construction, the ships being much more modular than before and able to be easily upgraded. The Constitution class could have actually be the first class to attempt this, but considered failed due to the problems involved (Motion Picture showed a ship that had major issues after the refit with Transporters and Warp Drive, and the 1701-A was also shown to have major issues as well). However, the other three classes seem to have worked out well enough to last significantly longer.

Apparently early in Starfleets life, ship designs weren't expected to last longer than a decade or two. The NX-01 was already going to be mothballed after a mere ten years of service (although that ship had a hard life). The Crossfield class was more or less scoured from existence with the Glenn being destroyed by Discovery, and Discovery being expunged from records. We only see a single Walker class, which was considered old when we saw it. And finally at the end of Picard, we only saw one ship type, the Curiosity class. This is in stark contrast to All Good Things (and personally I think Rikers scene in Picard would have been better if he were on the bridge of a three nacelled Galaxy class, but that's an issue for another forum) where Riker was on a modernized Galaxy refit, although it was also going to be mothballed before Riker saved it, meaning the Galaxy class had lasted less than half a decade (in contrast to the Tech Manual for it claiming to have a century long space frame).

 

[Leathco]

Also wanted to add all this is in stark contrast to Klingon ship design, where the basic Bird of Prey styled frame has been around since before the Federation even existed, which is insane.

 

[NCC-73515]

And the Magee was around for about 150 years XD

 

[C.E. Evans]

Starships are very much tools. And some tools are better than others. Some designs may be very good at a particular job, while others may be good at multiple jobs. These could be the ones that become longtime classics.

Conversely, some designs may be the products of new technologies at the time that quickly go out of fashion or are ultimately superseded by even newer technologies. Unlike the Klingons perhaps, Starfleet's shipbuilding policy seems based on the philosophy of constantly churning out lots of new designs. Some--like the Excelsior, Miranda, and Oberth classes catch fire and become something of reliable workhorses of the fleet that withstand the test of time. The vast majority of Starfleet designs, though, may actually come and go and only be in service for a short while in comparison, IMO.

 

[Unicron]

I think for this question, there are two things to consider. First, there are some real world questions involved (it was typically cheaper to use an existing model than build a new one every few episodes, and sometimes the models get damaged and couldn't be used again).

Second, I think it's a mistake to assume ships don't exist just because we don't see them regularly. In my own personal head canon, I've always enjoyed the "big fleet" perspective and the assumption that, with various degrees of future technology in Trek, it would be quite common to see designs or individual ships last in service for a century or more. We're already seeing elements of that today, with many people driving cars that are at least a decade old and some military designs easily lasting a half century in some degree of operation.

I do think the prequel series have issues when it comes to elements of design philosophy, as the networks want stuff to look "cool" even if it doesn't seem to fit the technology of the era the series is set in. I admit that I've found the Klingon designs in Discovery rather... odd, at best. YMMV though.

 

[Relayer1]

I decided on the modular upgrades to space frames option years ago. TOS was odd as we never saw much outside the Connie, but I'm sure a multitude of older ships were in service, but only the newest and best in front line long mission exploration. Some spaceframes no doubt proved more durable than others and became the fleets workhorses.

Volume of space contained per extra light year outwards the Federation expands or establishes diplomatic and trading relations with increases massively. The need for ever more ships performing mundane transport, support, survey and security functions also increases massively.

It's probably not a stretch to surmise that only the most decrepit or damaged ships are retired, and at that, only after saucers and hulls from similar ships are married together and junkers are cannibalised to keep their sister ships running.

Maybe not all of them stay in Starfleet, but most of them will stay in service.

 

[Albertese]

There could be other factors in play as well. For example, perhaps the Constitution-class was retired as part of the Khitomer treaty (a ship seen by the Klingons as a battlecruiser designed specifically to counter them, so Starfleet sees retiring a class that has had good success but has been proving recently buggy is a good political move.)

As for the Ambassador-class, in my head cannon, there were only a handful built, six or ten, and there were top of the line explorer in every sense. Specifically built for long range exploration, these ships were deployed for decades long exploration missions and were too far away from the Federation to participate in the Dominion War.

Anyway, even in real life this sort of thing can happen. The American B-52 bomber has been in service since the mid 1950's and (as is my understanding--correct me if I'm wrong) plans are to keep it in service for a couple more decades. When it finally is retired, the class of plane will have served for around a century.

--Alex

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Anyway, even in real life this sort of thing can happen. The American B-52 bomber has been in service since the mid 1950's and (as is my understanding--correct me if I'm wrong) plans are to keep it in service for a couple more decades. When it finally is retired, the class of plane will have served for around a century.

--Alex

Yup, that's the beauty of some designs, they are so classic and functional that there is no need to replace them yet.

But moving further along into the future, I can see some classes updated to take the latest design advancements and resemble the general shape of older classes.

 

[Santaman]

Why wouldn't these classes still be in service? I assume planned obsolescence isn't a part of starship designs, these things are made from materials that don't rust or decay and if a freighter is doing fine delivering goods in a monthly trip in the 23th century the same ship would be fine doing the same thing in the 24th century.
Starships aren't cars that need to be fashionable so they need to be updated every few years and besides that, even a car from the 1920's can still putter around just as easily as it did a century ago.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Why wouldn't these classes still be in service? I assume planned obsolescence isn't a part of starship designs, these things are made from materials that don't rust or decay and if a freighter is doing fine delivering goods in a monthly trip in the 23th century the same ship would be fine doing the same thing in the 24th century.
Starships aren't cars that need to be fashionable so they need to be updated every few years and besides that, even a car from the 1920's can still putter around just as easily as it did a century ago.

New Materials for core structures on StarShips are bound to come about as Material Science improves.

e.g. The Materials we have access to now for building a house is so much better than what we had in the 80's / 90's.

Using new Materials in the core frame of StarShip construction can make a critical difference over the long term.

New Hull materials, new layouts for deck efficiency.

Some design changes might require strict "Physical Changes" to the core structure of a StarShip based on knowledge learned.

The USS Defiant lasted longer in battle because of it's "Ablative Hull Armor", even against a upgraded Excelsior class.

Imagine Future Upgrades on all StarFleet StarShips:
- Now imagine if EVERY single StarShip had "Ablative Hull Armor" in the base hull + new technology like Ablative Hull Generator on top of the Base Hull that has it's "Ablative Hull Armor"
- Now include the Conformal "Shields" on top of "Ablative Hull Generator" emitted from the etched lines on the hull. These were the "Shield" configuration where the Shield layer was only a few meters away from the hull and hugged the surface of the hull.
- Then add in a second layer of "Shields" that is emitted from the Main Deflector Dish
You can set this to create the Ovaloid "Bubble Shield" from TNG that we know and love.
= (Now you have 2x Layers of "Shields") where if something passes the 1st layer, the 2nd layer will catch the remainder of the energy that penetrates.
- Now you stack on "Quick Recharge" by taking down the Shields and refill the Shields to 100% in 45 seconds thanks to the Nova Class. But apply that feature to every StarShip with Multiple layers of Shields. That would make ships "Harder" to kill because you have to take down a StarShips "Shield" within a small window of time.

New Safety Requirements in terms of layout may come about due to knowledge learned in field on older StarShips.

e.g. IRL of a similar critical change:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525
In response to the incident and the circumstances of Lubitz's involvement in it, aviation authorities in some countries (including Australia, Canada, Germany, and New Zealand) implemented new regulations that require two authorized personnel to be present in the cockpit of large passenger aircraft at all times.[4][5][6][7] While the United States Federal Aviation Administration,[g][11][139] the Civil Aviation Administration of China[h][140][141] and some European airlines already had a similar "rule of two" requirement, the European Aviation Safety Agency recommended the introduction of similar legal changes.[6][142] Other airlines announced similar changes to their policies.

We in the US and our FAA always had the "Rule of Two" when it comes to the cockpit. But the Europeans never had that "Rule of Two" and because one of the pilots had psychological issues, he forced the plane to crash into the side of the mountain killing everybody on board deliberately.

9/11 forced crucial cockpit design changes, but that change also caused issues where if you didn't have good protocols in place, a possible worse case scenario could occur which did occur.

 

[NCC-73515]

Someone told me a while ago that mars probes are already outdated by the time they arrive XD

 

[DarthTimon]

Why wouldn't these classes still be in service? I assume planned obsolescence isn't a part of starship designs, these things are made from materials that don't rust or decay and if a freighter is doing fine delivering goods in a monthly trip in the 23th century the same ship would be fine doing the same thing in the 24th century.
Starships aren't cars that need to be fashionable so they need to be updated every few years and besides that, even a car from the 1920's can still putter around just as easily as it did a century ago.

It seems like Starfleet retires some designs early for any number of reasons (see @KamenRiderBlade 's excellent post, if you haven't already). It could be some classes end up having design flaws exposed in horrific fashion, requiring the model be urgently pulled. Maybe that's why the Lakota variant of the Excelsior class is rare.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

It seems like Starfleet retires some designs early for any number of reasons (see @KamenRiderBlade 's excellent post, if you haven't already). It could be some classes end up having design flaws exposed in horrific fashion, requiring the model be urgently pulled. Maybe that's why the Lakota variant of the Excelsior class is rare.

Also, IRL, when you come up with a new feature list, implementing it in a "Clean Sheet Design" is usually cheaper and easier then retro-fitting new systems into a existing frame.

Especially when it has some strict technical requirements like "Aerodynamics", "Stealth Signature", etc.

Stack enough "Requirements" on your design doc, and it usually becomes easier to make a new version.

IRL, the F-35 had several Phone Books worth of requirements thanks to the requirements came up by the Smart Folks in the military brass who saw the future of Air Combat. Then on top of that Congress required other things to cheapen logistics.

Ergo the F-35 has 3 variants, A/B/C which share a multitude of common components.

The F-35 will replace many aircraft in the US military and around the world.

The requirements were harsh, but it met all required parameters.

 

[DarthTimon]

Also, IRL, when you come up with a new feature list, implementing it in a "Clean Sheet Design" is usually cheaper and easier then retro-fitting new systems into a existing frame.

Especially when it has some strict technical requirements like "Aerodynamics", "Stealth Signature", etc.

Stack enough "Requirements" on your design doc, and it usually becomes easier to make a new version.

IRL, the F-35 had several Phone Books worth of requirements thanks to the requirements came up by the Smart Folks in the military brass who saw the future of Air Combat. Then on top of that Congress required other things to cheapen logistics.

Ergo the F-35 has 3 variants, A/B/C which share a multitude of common components.

The F-35 will replace many aircraft in the US military and around the world.

The requirements were harsh, but it met all required parameters.

It must also be a lot easier to maintain and repair ships if they use a similar, standardised design.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

It must also be a lot easier to maintain and repair ships if they use a similar, standardised design.

That was one of the reasonings, implementing and designing a aircraft that is "Easier to Fix", more common parts, using less "Specialized Parts", and using common tools we already have in mass production.

Remember the design knowledge that older planes used was a complicated cluster fuck of engineering decision making.

e.g. Older Legacy Aircraft requires an entire OS system update that requires ALOT of validation testing just to add a new weapon.

F-35, we have a modern common open spec "Driver Model" designed by the Military so that any new weapons that comes on line only has to follow the "Driver Model" to be added into the aircraft.

Ergo time to online and usable dropped from many Years and multi-millions dollars of testing to a few months and far less money.

 

[Timo]

Honestly, there aren't many classes that make it that long. If you look at the Battle of the Binary Stars, NONE of the classes there survive to the TOS Kirk era, in which the only class around for the most part is the Constitution.

Or then all of them survive and indeed outlive Kirk's ship class. After all, we saw so few other starships in TOS that we really can't tell.

I decided on the modular upgrades to space frames option years ago. TOS was odd as we never saw much outside the Connie, but I'm sure a multitude of older ships were in service, but only the newest and best in front line long mission exploration.

Then again, Kirk's ship always was supposed to have some history on her. Instead of being "the newest", she in hindsight probably was one of the very oldest in service, and indeed a relic with 22nd- early 23rd century style nacelles when everybody else had more modern ones built in or refitted. That she finally caught up in the 2270s would only have extended her service life by a decade or two, just like bolting those boxy nacelles onto the Binaries ships didn't help them survive much past that era.

"Frontline exploration" in naval history in general has been burdened on outdated, decrepit or low-capability ships that are not needed for serious work, i.e. fighting or frightening the enemy. If Kirk in the 1930s sails out into the already boiling Pacific in a protected cruiser originally built in the 1890s to a 1870s design, burning coal when most of the Fleet has moved on to di-coal, er, oil, all the more glory to him!

I doubt starship design is truly hit and miss. There may be eras where disastrous choices are made and an entire generation of ships proves useless, but in general Starfleet hedges its bets by creating a multitude of parallel designs - and each generation features a ship built to last, and successful in that role. The Constitutions could well be as long-lived as the Excelsiors, always having been built with this very longevity in mind. And quite possibly we just missed the workhorse class that straddled the service lives of those two prominent classes, because we didn't watch Starfleet between the 2290s and the 2350s. Or then we glimpsed it in DSC (when it was being introduced) or ST:FC/DS9 (when it was on its way to obscurity, and farther down that way than the newer Excelsior) without recognizing it.

OTOH, I do agree with the idea that a specific class in every era is designated a workhorse, and the other designs with more specialist roles (even if technologically basically identical) are not intended to live long, because their roles necessarily evaporate from under them with time. And conversely, there are designs that far outlive the workhorses because their roles are even more secure - the Oberth or the Magee can continue to survey the galaxy forever because the galaxy doesn't change in the timescale of mere centuries. Or millions of years if it comes to that. (Similarly, a supply ship may keep on supplying, even if the range of Starfleet operations increases: it may be economically advantageous to retain the original ships at the shorter ranges and only introduce new ones for the longer ones. Long live the boxy and utilitarian Magee!)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Albertese]

I don't know what the Magee is... I assume it's from one or more of those CBS shows I have yet to enjoy. Can anyone post a picture?

Also, as to long service lives, I was just thinking about Cassity Yates ship, whose bridge consoles seemed very much in the same vein as the TOS consoles, suggesting it could have been 120 years old or so when we see it in DS9.

--Alex

 

[Deks]

It seems that the Federation has kept some classes of ship in service for nearly a century - the Excelsior class launched in 2290 and ships of that class were still in active service during the Dominion War, nearly 100 years later. Same can be said of the Miranda class. Yet others didn't stick around - the Ambassador class for example, which appeared to launch in the 2340s, was dropped before the Dominion War, a short lifespan for the class, considering previous efforts from Starfleet. Any thoughts as to why Starfleet does what it does?

Actually, the Ambassador class was seen in TNG (during the time when Duras sisters tried to seize power of the Klingon Empire).
So, the Ambassador class is still there, just less prominently used.
It was one of the ships used to deploy a tachyon detection grid which exposed Romulan ships providing aid to Duras family during the Klingon Civil War.
Also, the Constellation class starship was seen as part of that Tachyon detection fleet too... and seems to belong in a similar era like the Excelsior and Miranda classess... mainly due to nacelle design.

Seeing or not seeing a specific starship class may be due to several reasons. But the primary one is that likely there was not much focus on those other classes of ships. TNG mainly focused on the Enterprise-D and gave us only a few glimpses of other SF ships.
For all we know, the Constellation and Ambassador class ships may have been assigned different duties which would not necessarily put them at the forefront like other classes.

As for how long a class of star-ship class lasts...
I would imagine that Starfleet may be producing a certain class for a set amount of time (say, 20 years), then they stop production of that class and focus on other (newer) classes of ships.
Any ship designs that are in service (or survive) for long periods (past the initial 20 years) likely undergo regular upgrades and maintenance over time (much like the USS Lakota underwent upgrades before the Dominion War started and made it comparable to the USS Defiant in weapons... and probably faster than the Defiant in regards to Warp capability) as the frames themselves should be able to last over 100 years... or 200 (in one of the alternate futures from Star Trek: Enterprise we saw where the Federation fought the Sphere Builders, it had the USS Prometheus [or one of the Prometheus class] in that battle, which happened about 200 years after the original commission of that class - in that timeline, several of the Prometheus class ships would likely survive for long periods and continue to be upgraded over time).

 

[Santaman]

While @KamenRiderBlade made an excelent case I still think that 100 years of service wouldn't be all that long for a starship that get its scheduled maintenance as for updates and upgrades, when needed and I don't think that spare parts will ever be a problem since they can be replicated, heck, we're doing that today already with 3D printers and the like.
And indeed, if your starship isn't suited for a task anymore then it can go and do something else, I think a Miranda class ship would be good at hauling cargo for example.
But I think this might be a case of to agree to disagree.