The setting: Why TNG and not TOS?
- Thread starter Acenos
- Start date
What about Icheb? Have him do a stint on Cerritos before transferring to the Coleman.
Perhaps it'll ease the feelings of the "THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE KILLED HIM!
" crowd slightly.
So, are we seriously saying the only Klingon who can be bald or old with an eye patch is General Chang?
I believe Icheb should still be attending the Academy during this series. Though I guess he could do shipboard training aboard the Cerritos.
Emphasis on slightly.Perhaps it'll ease the feelings of the "THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE KILLED HIM!
So.... It's wrong that people are upset that they killed off a character in a grotesque manner simply for the shock value?
(Yes, it played a part in Seven's motivation to be against the Borg-parts collector or whatever, but they could have done it in a different manner, or with a different character, and didn't have to make it one that viewers of Voyager would have had an attachment to. I mean, now his entire story in Voyager is pointless. Now you watch him and can't go, "Man! He's got so much he can accomplish when he's on Earth and gets into Starfleet! He's so brilliant and dedicated!"
Nope, you're going to die on a table in a dark, disgusting, room having your eye ripped out of your skull by a woman looking for a implant you gave-up to save Seven's life.
(Yes, it played a part in Seven's motivation to be against the Borg-parts collector or whatever, but they could have done it in a different manner, or with a different character, and didn't have to make it one that viewers of Voyager would have had an attachment to. I mean, now his entire story in Voyager is pointless. Now you watch him and can't go, "Man! He's got so much he can accomplish when he's on Earth and gets into Starfleet! He's so brilliant and dedicated!"
Nope, you're going to die on a table in a dark, disgusting, room having your eye ripped out of your skull by a woman looking for a implant you gave-up to save Seven's life.
Icheb's a character I was mostly ambivalent about before. I didn't hate him, but I didn't really particularly care that much about him either. But that scene changed everything. It really got to me, and even for the next week or so afterwards I was suddenly reliving memorable Icheb moments from various Voyager episodes. It is nothing less than a stroke of brilliance when they can kill off a character I'm ambivalent about and suddenly make me give a shit about him.
And really, it couldn't have worked with another character. Sure, I guess they could have created a new character who apparently had history with Seven and their loss drives her on her quest for vengeance and have had essentially the same story. But making it someone the audience has a connection to and has seen Seven have a connection to him makes it far more effective. We don't need to imagine this was someone Seven was close to. We know this is someone she was close to because we saw a relationship and bond develop between the two of them over the course of a year and a half on Voyager. Which helps sell her desire for vengeance a lot more than some new character we don't know could.
I get all of that but, at the same time, it's pretty shitty to take such a character and to kill him off in such a manner and to me it felt more done for the shock value the at "gross-out" visuals than it was for any character motivations and roping the audience into that as well. Because, in the end, when it comes to these characters we've put so much effort into caring about it really sucks to see them killed in such a manner.
There was no need to do it, it could have been a "new" character and given Seven just much motivation and drive. If the way Ryan acted it, the way was directed it, and the way it was written was done well the audience could've been just as roped in as they supposedly would be if they used Icheb.
But, then, the stuff with Seven has its own problems for me as well.
But they didn't kill Icheb to drive Seven, they did it for the shock value and for the gory visuals.
Please, no.
But doesn't that help sell the matter? This is a character we're invested in. A character we've gotten to know and watched develop. He has a life we're aware of, because we've seen a bit of it. With a new character, they're just someone we're watching die. We can be told they have a significant history with Seven, and go along with it for the purposes of the story, but in the end, showing is better than telling. A new character we're merely being told is significant to Seven. Icheb we know is significant to Seven because we were shown their history together on Voyager.
It does help, but at the same time it shouldn't always be necessary and you're sacrificing one character for another. Why does Icheb even matter anymore in Voyager now? He'd have been better off if he'd been left with that group who were just going to send him back to The Borg.
How does his death on Picard negate his development on Voyager? That's like saying only characters with no development or meaningful story contributions should be killed.
Because it's meaningless now. When we last see him on Voyager it's nice to be able to think he's going to go on, go through the Academy, and have a successful career in Starfleet doing who knows what. Maybe be captain some day!
Nope, he's going to die on a table having his eye pulled out of his skull by a sadistic woman.
It's like real life. Lots of people have potential and "character arcs" that end horribly and pointlessly.
Okay, and if someone in the real world graduated from university with a promising career ahead of them with the potential to become one of the world's top leaders in their profession, or indeed the leader of a nation, only to be killed in a car accident a few years later, does that make their life pointless? Of course it doesn't, nor do their friends or family regret the time they spend with them or view it as "time wasted because they were doomed to die before making a difference."
Besides, Icheb now has one of the more memorable scenes in Star Trek, which is not something I would have thought would happen at all during any of his Voyager appearances.
So Kirk’s death in Generations makes all his previous stories meaningless?
Spock’s off screen death in Beyond?
Jadzia’s death in DS9?
He's a fictional character. His potential is determined by those who want to use him in a story. Up till killing him that potential was nil.
I'd argue there's differences between all of those deaths and the death of Icheb, mostly in how those deaths were handled and portrayed, none of them very well other than Spock's, and why they were done. One of them real-life death of the actor and one of them the actress leaving the show.
Here? They just wanted to shock you.
And, look, I have no real attachment to Icheb or much from Voyager, just that that scene and killing him reeked of tehm just wanting to do something shocking and gross. And, I, I , think that doing that to Icheb was just senseless and out of line.
If it was meant to be shocking they failed.
Senseless if of course the point. That not all death carries meaning.
Out of line? Out of line for what?
Senseless if of course the point. That not all death carries meaning.
Out of line? Out of line for what?
I'm honestly not sure what I meant by that, just that the killing of Icheb in such a manner was stupid.
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