What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[128bits]

Controversial.... Um

- I think TMP is one of the greatest achievements in the Trek franchise. If treated like you would treat 2001: A Space Odyssey it is art (that being said, I prefer TWOK and TUC if I'm wanting to watch a movie for Kirk and Co.)

- I place Discovery higher than Voyager.

- Generations was a huge mistake, the first of four (although I enjoyed FC) but it was necessary (arguably) for that kind of bonehead storytelling in the features to convince Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner to revisit the characters later on in Picard in a medium (Television) that allows for far better character development and resolution.

 

[Falconer]

I speculate a lot of people who don't like Discovery might have been turned off by the early episodes of Season 1 (or Season 1 in general, perhaps)
Because that was what happened to me after watching both Seasons of Discovery now I thought it got a lot better, and friendlier, as it went along and while it still won't topple DS9 as my favourite Star Trek series, I'm kinda looking forward to season 3.

This is not me trying to bash a series, honestly. But frequently in TOS I cannot even fathom why the characters are acting or reacting the way they do or what emotion they are trying to convey and why. Might be a generational thing, or me not being used to 1960s TV, I remember being similarly perplexed the one time I caught a rerun of Bonanza.

Interesting. I’m the opposite. I watch a lot of TOS, and I really get the characters, but, I got them from the very first episode I ever watched (Miri). I think the actors worked really hard to make them relatable.

The only DS9 episode I’ve seen is the Tribbles one, and, it really struck me that the DS9 actors seemed to be phoning it in. The TOS Tribbles episode is over-the-top, to be sure, but it works because the TOS actors are 100% committed. The DS9 actors’ performances were expressionless, aloof, indistinguishable, barely moving an eyebrow with the exception of the character Dax. I was particularly surprised by the captain, Sisko, because I’ve seen so many “who’s your favorite captain” rankings over the years, but he really didn’t seem up to the challenge of measuring up to Kirk; maybe he dared not even try. I know *nothing* about the character from that episode. (And why didn’t he shave??)

As for Discovery, yes, I only saw Season 1. And yes, everyone seemed so miserable and screwed up, and I don’t really see it as particularly relatable when people are emotional wrecks all the time. I felt like I was waiting the whole season for them to start behaving according to Starfleet Directives so we could get on with Star Trekking. I like The Orville much better, because the characters are more likable, and they actually follow Starfleet Directives and go on Star Treks, but even then they spend waaaay too much time with relationship issues, for me.

 

[AresB]

As for Discovery, yes, I only saw Season 1. And yes, everyone seemed so miserable and screwed up, and I don’t really see it as particularly relatable when people are emotional wrecks all the time.

In the beginning, yes. There was a horrible war going on, and the one who had allegedly started it with her mutiny was right there. But little by little, over a number of episodes, they learnt to work as a crew, trust each other, and in the end stand together against the main villains and make peace.

 

[fireproof78]

The only DS9 episode I’ve seen is the Tribbles one, and, it really struck me that the DS9 actors seemed to be phoning it in. The TOS Tribbles episode is over-the-top, to be sure, but it works because the TOS actors are 100% committed.

It's funny to hear different people's experiences because the first DS9 episode I saw was the Tribbles one as well and I loved Sisko and Bashier. I had tried to get in to DS9 earlier on, but it simply didn't sound appealing to my 14 year old mind at the time.

But, TOS was my absolute favorite, so the crossover event appealed. And I found Sisko so interesting because he stood in contrast to Kirk, more of a compliment than a competition. So, I followed along with DS9 and discovered that Sisko and the rest really appealed to me.

And yes, everyone seemed so miserable and screwed up, and I don’t really see it as particularly relatable when people are emotional wrecks all the time.

Again, it's funny to me because I prefer emotional wrecks, probably because I am one myself. Those are people that I find intriguing because they start out so disparate in their connections, at odds with one another in the middle of a war. It reminded me of a line from a very different movie and yet it is what appeals to me in Star Trek, especially with individuals who are struggling with emotional pain.

And that's what I remember Ioving about your story. It's very conflicted.

At the beginning, you think these people are doomed. This family's heading for disaster. Then, as you read on, you see that there exists, beneath the surface, these very real connections, these deep relationships.

What I took from your story is this, that even in a world where people can be superficial and stupid and selfish, there's still hope.”

 

[sljolt]

Not sure if these are controversional opinions, but as much as I loved TNG, a couple of the personal relationships portrayed make me really uncomfortable.

The entire handling of LaForge and Brahms' relationship is awful. For a show with otherwise sound ethics, the moral lesson of that episode absolutely should not have been that Brahms was wrong to have been harsh towards Geordi. He created a fantasy version of her and then made clumsy advances based on those expectations. Brahms was right to be indignant, and the whole line about "expecting friendship" always struck me as a total non-sequitor. It felt like there was a scene missing where Geordi apologises for being unprofessional, explains what happened in the simulation, the two discuss the differences between fantasy and reality, and Brahms forgives him due to the exceptional circumstances. Instead, we get a hard-cut to the two laughing over drinks in ten-forward as Geordi jokes about how cold and frigid she was.

Picard's relationship with his brother is bizarre. The undertones of his brother's jealousy and feelings of inadequacy, of his childhood bullying of Jean-Luc, culminating in a physical confrontation and a drunken sing-song, it all makes no sense to me. Again, it felt like there was a scene missing which went into the underlying brotherly love and affection the two shared, the kind of bond which would allow them to laugh about their insecurities and perceived failures. Instead we get a roll around the mud, some laughing, and then tears. I understand they were going for some sort of catharsis, but I just didn't quite get that on first viewing.

Maybe the writers just take it for granted that people in the future are so well-intentioned that Robert couldn't possibly be so toxic, and LaForge couldn't possibly have had ill motives, but a few more minutes establishing these relationships might have the endings less jarring.

 

[Orphalesion]

Interesting. I’m the opposite. I watch a lot of TOS, and I really get the characters, but, I got them from the very first episode I ever watched (Miri). I think the actors worked really hard to make them relatable.

I can give an example, from an TOS episode I actually like. In the Enterprise Incident, when they make up Kirk as a Romulan and he shows off his ears to Scotty. The whole scene is absolutely weird to me, the weird smiling, the dialogue. The best I can guess is that they are flirting with each other, which I don't think is the intend.
Was is going on? Why are these people acting that way? What is this scene conveying? Why IS he even showing his ears to Scotty?(there might be a reason for that last one, but it's been like a year since I last saw that episode)

As for Discovery, yes, I only saw Season 1. And yes, everyone seemed so miserable and screwed up, and I don’t really see it as particularly relatable when people are emotional wrecks all the time. I felt like I was waiting the whole season for them to start behaving according to Starfleet Directives so we could get on with Star Trekking. I like The Orville much better, because the characters are more likable, and they actually follow Starfleet Directives and go on Star Treks, but even then they spend waaaay too much time with relationship issues, for me.

Without spoiling too much, everybody is a lot happier for large stretches of Season 2. And they get a temporary captain who's a lot more likable than the last one...

 

[Mytran]

Not sure if these are controversional opinions, but as much as I loved TNG, a couple of the personal relationships portrayed make me really uncomfortable.

The entire handling of LaForge and Brahms' relationship is awful. For a show with otherwise sound ethics, the moral lesson of that episode absolutely should not have been that Brahms was wrong to have been harsh towards Geordi. He created a fantasy version of her and then made clumsy advances based on those expectations. Brahms was right to be indignant, and the whole line about "expecting friendship" always struck me as a total non-sequitor. It felt like there was a scene missing where Geordi apologises for being unprofessional, explains what happened in the simulation, the two discuss the differences between fantasy and reality, and Brahms forgives him due to the exceptional circumstances. Instead, we get a hard-cut to the two laughing over drinks in ten-forward as Geordi jokes about how cold and frigid she was.

Picard's relationship with his brother is bizarre. The undertones of his brother's jealousy and feelings of inadequacy, of his childhood bullying of Jean-Luc, culminating in a physical confrontation and a drunken sing-song, it all makes no sense to me. Again, it felt like there was a scene missing which went into the underlying brotherly love and affection the two shared, the kind of bond which would allow them to laugh about their insecurities and perceived failures. Instead we get a roll around the mud, some laughing, and then tears. I understand they were going for some sort of catharsis, but I just didn't quite get that on first viewing.

Maybe the writers just take it for granted that people in the future are so well-intentioned that Robert couldn't possibly be so toxic, and LaForge couldn't possibly have had ill motives, but a few more minutes establishing these relationships might have the endings less jarring.

I have easier time handwaving the change in relationship between Jean-Luc and Robert since they have literally a lifetime of history between them. Robert's confession "sometimes I even enjoyed bullying you" might have been as cathartic for himself as it was for his younger brother - an admission that he had been a terrible person in his youth which he truly regretted now (although it doesn't stop him being a grumpy stick-in-the-mud).
Jean-Luc in turn later accepted that that Robert had laid his emotions bare (in his own way) which allowed him to do the same
Brotherly relationships are complex things

I cannot similarly forgive Geordi for his behaviour with the real Leah Brahms. Even at the end of the episode he was still laying the blame for the situation in her camp.

 

[fireproof78]

Was is going on? Why are these people acting that way? What is this scene conveying? Why IS he even showing his ears to Scotty?

It's typical 60s style sitcom of "What a wacky adventure we just had, right?"

 

[Kor]

Exactly. If anything, later Trek didn't have nearly enough moments of levity like that.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

Exactly. If anything, later Trek didn't have nearly enough moments of levity like that.

Kor

Well, you see, 60s era Trek was not really Trek either because it was too happy. Star Trek is, after all, a deeply serious introspection in to the nature of humanity and predicting its ability to transcend its most basic emotions in the name of logic.

I trust you to see why smiling and laughing do not fit in to this.

 

[Orphalesion]

It's typical 60s style sitcom of "What a wacky adventure we just had, right?"

I understand, even though I still don't understand the scene really. Though Iirc it's not the ending scene, it's before he beams over to the Romulan ship.
But as I said, it's probably just me not being used to 60s style TV, as I wrote that one episode of Bonanza I saw also felt very weird and kinda confusing to me
I can't really say that I have seen a lot of other 60s TV. I've seen a couple of episodes of the Avengers, but that's British and different.

 

[fireproof78]

I understand, even though I still don't understand the scene really. Though Iirc it's not the ending scene, it's before he beams over to the Romulan ship.
But as I said, it's probably just me not being used to 60s style TV, as I wrote that one episode of Bonanza I saw also felt very weird and kinda confusing to me
I can't really say that I have seen a lot of other 60s TV. I've seen a couple of episodes of the Avengers, but that's British and different.

But, the say rules apply-"What a wacky day we're having" is pretty much standard 60s TV adventure.

Sorry, I grew up with 60s TV since my parents thoroughly enjoyed it, as well as 80s and 90s sitcoms so those tropes are just part of the era, if a bit weird.

 

[Kor]

But, the say rules apply-"What a wacky day we're having" is pretty much standard 60s TV adventure.

Sorry, I grew up with 60s TV since my parents thoroughly enjoyed it, as well as 80s and 90s sitcoms so those tropes are just part of the era, if a bit weird.

60s TV makes me feel all warm and fuzzy in a way that nothing actually of my generation ever manages.

Kor

 

[Orphalesion]

Sorry, I grew up with 60s TV since my parents thoroughly enjoyed it, as well as 80s and 90s sitcoms so those tropes are just part of the era, if a bit weird.

Why are you apologizing, it's all good It's just a matter of what we get exposed to and what we're used to.
Like aside from TOS, the oldest TV shows where I have seen more than a couple episodes are probably from the 70s.

I just never considered that Star Trek (even TOS) could have sitcom elements, that does explain a few things

 

[fireproof78]

Why are you apologizing, it's all good It's just a matter of what we get exposed to and what we're used to.
Like aside from TOS, the oldest TV shows where I have seen more than a couple episodes are probably from the 70s.

I just never considered that Star Trek (even TOS) could have sitcom elements, that does explain a few things

I don't want to sound like I'm talking down to you, so that's the apologizing.

 

[Orphalesion]

I don't want to sound like I'm talking down to you, so that's the apologizing.

No don't worry I didn't have the feeling, I thought you were just answering my questions.

 

[marlboro]

It seems odd to me that some of you guys have only watched one or two episodes of some of these series.

 

[fireproof78]

It seems odd to me that some of you guys have only watched one or two episodes of some of these series.

Why? I tried TNG, VOY and it took me a while to warm up to DS9. Not all Trek is for all people.

 

[marlboro]

But hasn't the franchise earned the benefit of the doubt? At least enough so to watch more than a single episode before passing judgement.

In my case , I think that TOS, VOY, and ENT all have more episodes that I don't like than I do. However, if I had given up on them after only an episode or two, I would have missed on more than 100 good to great ones.

 

[fireproof78]

But hasn't the franchise earned the benefit of the doubt?

No.

Call that a controversial opinion if you will but there is no franchise that has earned a benefit of the doubt from me.

Also, I think I tried up to Season 2 with TNG, but didn't get past Season 1 with ENT but did revisit "Demons" and "Terra Prime"

If someone here recommends a particular episode then I'll visit it. But, no "because Star Trek" is not sufficient for me.