• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

News Foundation Adaptation Series Officially Ordered by Apple

I'd need to re-read it all but I think it is just presented as culturally normal.

Depicting something does not equal endorsing it. If the story is dystopian, a societal norm can be portrayed as part of what makes the society corrupt. For instance, the novel Logan's Run was basically a conservative counterargument to the '60s/'70s youth movement, a dystopian future where the youth rebellion wins and kills off everyone over 21, and society falls apart because nobody's mature enough to plan for the future or remember how to repair things. So anyone over 14 is considered an adult, and the characters participate in drug-fueled free-love orgies where most of the participants are teenagers. The book portrays this, along with so much else about the society, as something to condemn, a symptom of the culture's corruption that warranted the resistance against it.

By a similar token, I recently read an article where someone mentioned the casual references to same-sex relationships in the Logan's Run movie as something surprisingly progressive for the era, when in fact it was just the reverse, because the movie was portraying the culture's sexual hedonism and abandonment of traditional marital norms as part of what made it immoral and dysfunctional, so it actually fit right into the era's prejudices, the tendency of many films to use non-heteronormative behavior as an indicator of a character's (or culture's) warped, evil nature.
 
Just in case anyone is confused, Psychohistorical Crisis is by Donald Kingsbury, not Isaac Asimov. To my reading, there is no suggestion in Second Foundation that Pelleas Anthor has the remotest interest in Arkady Darell, who is precocious but not coquettish. It's true that Lord Stettin has designs on Arkady as a potential consort but he's flagged as a bad guy anyway.
 
Hormones in food over the recent decades have had children start puberty very early. In 15 thousand years, the farms needed to feed 40 billion people per planet are going to be gmo monsters.

After a few hundred years of 6 year old girls starting puberty, the moral and legal rules about age and consent are going to shift if 9 year olds look like they are 23, and they have urges.
In two hundred years much farming will be done in off-world o'neill colony farms where strict avoidance of harmful species can allow natural seed stock use. Or it will all just be synthesized.
 
Depicting something does not equal endorsing it. If the story is dystopian, a societal norm can be portrayed as part of what makes the society corrupt. For instance, the novel Logan's Run was basically a conservative counterargument to the '60s/'70s youth movement, a dystopian future where the youth rebellion wins and kills off everyone over 21, and society falls apart because nobody's mature enough to plan for the future or remember how to repair things. So anyone over 14 is considered an adult, and the characters participate in drug-fueled free-love orgies where most of the participants are teenagers. The book portrays this, along with so much else about the society, as something to condemn, a symptom of the culture's corruption that warranted the resistance against it.

By a similar token, I recently read an article where someone mentioned the casual references to same-sex relationships in the Logan's Run movie as something surprisingly progressive for the era, when in fact it was just the reverse, because the movie was portraying the culture's sexual hedonism and abandonment of traditional marital norms as part of what made it immoral and dysfunctional, so it actually fit right into the era's prejudices, the tendency of many films to use non-heteronormative behavior as an indicator of a character's (or culture's) warped, evil nature.
So we have the authorial intent. The question is, in Psychohistorical Crisis the author is condemning these practices or not? There are presented as simptoms of a decadent society or he wants us to believe this is the natural evolution of our sexual culture?
 
Just in case anyone is confused, Psychohistorical Crisis is by Donald Kingsbury, not Isaac Asimov. To my reading, there is no suggestion in Second Foundation that Pelleas Anthor has the remotest interest in Arkady Darell, who is precocious but not coquettish. It's true that Lord Stettin has designs on Arkady as a potential consort but he's flagged as a bad guy anyway.

Also, it's worth keeping in mind that the older practice of looking at a young girl and considering her future sexual prospects as an adult was not pedophilia. It wasn't about wanting her at her current age, but about looking forward to when she'd be fully grown and eligible. After all, in those days, the cultural norm was to wait for sex until after marriage. So you could be in love with someone or engaged to them for years, but it would be taken for granted that sex wouldn't come into the picture until the right, culturally and legally approved time. So noticing a young girl's attractiveness or considering her prospects as a potential mate wasn't about exploiting her in the present, but about considering long-term options, making an investment that might take years to mature and pay off.


So we have the authorial intent. The question is, in Psychohistorical Crisis the author is condemning these practices or not? There are presented as simptoms of a decadent society or he wants us to believe this is the natural evolution of our sexual culture?

I think it's unhealthy to actively mine a writer's work for excuses to condemn the writer's morality. Yes, there are some writers who disappoint us when we learn of their real-life beliefs and actions (including Asimov's treatment of women, as well as Rowling's transphobia and Card's, well, everything), but it's not something you should actively start a witch hunt for. It's still a basic tenet of morality to give people the benefit of the doubt, to presume them innocent until the evidence compels us to do otherwise. If you assume the best of someone and you're wrong, that's on them. If you assume the worst about them and you're wrong, that's on you.

Writers and their stories are two different things. Stories are about characters in conflict, so naturally any competent story will depict beliefs and values different from the writer's own. Sometimes writers choose to write about protagonists they personally disagree with because it's interesting to explore their characters (for instance, Joss Whedon has said he disagrees strongly with Mal Reynolds's worldview and wouldn't enjoy having dinner with him). And sometimes a writer's work can transcend the writer's own limitations -- for instance, it's easy to read a lot of things in Harry Potter as allegories in favor of trans rights despite the author's transphobia, and Ender's Game is a powerful statement against the kind of xenophobia that its author now embraces.

This is because the meaning of a work comes more from its audience than from its creator. After all, something only has meaning if there's someone for it to mean something to. That's what allows a flawed writer's work to transcend that writer's flaws and even become a powerful counterargument against them -- because what it inspires in its audience outweighs what the creator might have had in mind. But by the same token, if you're eager to read immoral or perverted meaning into other people's creations, that's probably more a reflection on you than on them.
 
I haven't read Psychohistorical Crisis and I doubt that I will ever choose to tackle it now. It's not authorised by Asimov's estate so completists need not feel they ought to read it.
 
I haven't read Psychohistorical Crisis and I doubt that I will ever choose to tackle it now.

Or maybe you should actually research it for yourself rather than assume that a single person's vaguely remembered impression about one scene taken out of context is accurate.
 
Also, it's worth keeping in mind that the older practice of looking at a young girl and considering her future sexual prospects as an adult was not pedophilia. It wasn't about wanting her at her current age, but about looking forward to when she'd be fully grown and eligible.

I guess this could be what the author is getting at:

Katana's Six-year-old daughter was more Kikaju's metier, charming even without her mother's breasts, if dangerous in her own petite way. Frightfulperson Otaria of the Calmer Sea. Instant seduction was Jama's preference, but for variety, a long drawn-out courtship had a special marinated flavour. Otaria would be ready to bed in about another six years if carefully prepared. By then she would have budding breasts - perhaps, when mature, to rival her mother's own wonderful orbs. A carefully prepared virgin was one of life's gourmet delicacies.

I've continued to skim and there are a lot of passages about having sex with children - and a couple of passages where some characters discuss how big a young boy's penis is. There is also a gag later when a young girl talks about forgetting to put on any underwear.

The two characters mentioned above do go on to have a sexual relationship.

If the author is trying to convince us it is a degenerate society, he sure is keen on hammering that home with the repeated descriptions of children in sexual situations.

Maybe in my skimming of it - I've missed a powerful denouncement of this but given when I first read it I do so carefully and at that time thought this was all a bit odd, I doubt it.
 
I searched for the reviews of this book and this is the only one which talks a little about sex activities in the book

There is a lot of somewhat strange sex -- Kikaju Jama, in his 60s, likes to seduce teenage girls (as in about 13), while Eron Osa at age 13 or so has affairs with girls his age and women twice his age. It should be said that in this society pubescent boys and girls both appear to be considered eligible for consenting sexual activity, and there is no hint that any of the sex in the book is nonconsenting (with perhaps a tiny, plot important, wiggle).
 
I have to say there are a lot of positive reviews of this book and almost no one of them mention problematic underage sex (even the most recent ones).
 
Or maybe you should actually research it for yourself rather than assume that a single person's vaguely remembered impression about one scene taken out of context is accurate.
It doesn't sound like it has any redeeming qualities so I'll pass. It might have won an award but then so has lots of other stuff I haven't read.
 
Also, it's worth keeping in mind that the older practice of looking at a young girl and considering her future sexual prospects as an adult was not pedophilia. It wasn't about wanting her at her current age, but about looking forward to when she'd be fully grown and eligible. After all, in those days, the cultural norm was to wait for sex until after marriage. So you could be in love with someone or engaged to them for years, but it would be taken for granted that sex wouldn't come into the picture until the right, culturally and legally approved time. So noticing a young girl's attractiveness or considering her prospects as a potential mate wasn't about exploiting her in the present, but about considering long-term options, making an investment that might take years to mature and pay off.


It's coming back to me now, but I felt like that's exactly the way it came across while reading it, that there was a strong implication that he'd be waiting for her.

I haven't read Psychohistorical Crisis and I doubt that I will ever choose to tackle it now. It's not authorised by Asimov's estate so completists need not feel they ought to read it.

Actually, one of the best things about is the fact that it's not authorized. He was unshackled and allowed to imagine his own version of a Foundation story to its full potential without compromise. That is one of the reasons people rave about it.
 
Actually, one of the best things about is the fact that it's not authorized. He was unshackled and allowed to imagine his own version of a Foundation story to its full potential without compromise. That is one of the reasons people rave about it.
Perhaps he should have invented his own universe in which to set this particular story. It does seem a bit like he's hijacked a dead author's domain to advance what sounds like a tasteless premise. However, I haven't read it so I'll shut up now and take my prejudices elsewhere.
 
to advance what sounds like a tasteless premise.

Granted that it sounds unappealing, but we're talking about a detail that people had to search through the book to find references to, and Skipper could only find one review that found it significant enough to mention. So it sounds like it's a pretty minor background detail, hardly the singular reason the book was written.
 
Perhaps he should have invented his own universe in which to set this particular story.

Which is what in effect he did. In changing the names of everything, he made his own story and universe, one of which is heavily inspired by Asimov. You know, similar to how some authors get inspired by Trek or Star Wars end up writing original fiction set in their own universes. It's not all that inherently different.
 
Having read quite a few reviews in praise of the work, I decided I should read it and see for myself. However, it seems Psychohistorical Crisis is out of print. All I've been able to turn up are exhorbitantly priced used copies and apparently there is no Kindle version.
 
I found a copy for 4.14 $ on eBay. Can we post commercial links here?
I've now found quite a few reasonably priced copies in the US on eBay but the shipping costs are horrendous to the UK - £25 or more - and I'd probably get charged import duty on top of that. I'm not paying £30 to judge whether a book has a secret agenda that some might think condones paedophilia, but which nevertheless contains interesting insights about Psychohistory and cybernetically enhanced transhumans.
 
I've now found quite a few reasonably priced copies in the US on eBay but the shipping costs are horrendous to the UK - £25 or more - and I'd probably get charged import duty on top of that. I'm not paying £30 to judge whether a book has a secret agenda that some might think condones paedophilia, but which nevertheless contains interesting insights about Psychohistory and cybernetically enhanced transhumans.
Some local library..?

ETA: did you check Amazon.co.uk? They have some copies there.

ETA 2: I don't know where you actually live, but there is a copy at the British Library
http://explore.bl.uk/primo_library/...(freeText0)=9780312861025&dstmp=1568784565138
 
Last edited:
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top