It's really the people.. Apollo 11 had half the world watching.. By 17 it was an afterthought for the news..
People being hopefull
People being hopefull
Did Kennedy hamper space travel with his Go to the Moon Speach?
- Thread starter valkyrie013
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The PROGRAM was peaceful, I'm not saying its not. But the drive to DO it (rather Kennedy's interest in pushing for it, and Congress' willingness to fund it, along with the public's eagerness to prop it up as the most important thing for the country) all birthed from fear of the Soviets. Specifically Sputnik and Yuri Gagarin in Vostok 1. Sputnik first scared the public all like "OMG the Soviets have something on orbit... it could be a bomb next", and then Gagarin lit a bigger fire under our backside with Russia forever getting the "first man in space" distinction. If Shepard flew first, we would have had that distinction, and we wouldn't have been playing catch up. It was because of that, that Kennedy specifically asked NASA "what can we do to leapfrog the Soviets?" and the only potential project that they didn't already have a clear lead in was the moon, and that is why Kennedy stood up and challenged the country to reach the moon before the decade was out. Not because he wanted to learn anything about it scientifically, but for the specific purpose of doing it before the Soviet Union.
Ask anyone in NASA and they will all say the same thing, when the US lost its competitor, interest from Congress to let NASA off the proverbial leash dwindled, and the budget shackles came back on. Even before Apollo even ended - cuts, cuts, cuts, cuts. It wasn't long after the whole world watched Apollo 11 land on the moon that Apollo 20 was cut. Then just after Apollo 14, they cut 18 and 19. Hell, even before 13 flew, there was constant questioning from the legislature of "why are we continuing to fund this program, now that we've beat the Russians to the moon?"
As for "China's oddly lethargic space program" I have a feeling you are unaware that they have had six manned spaceflights (Shenzhou) since 2003, and crewed two space stations of their own (Tiengong-1 and 2) since 2011. Their manned program had simply been halted while focus was on the new modular space station they intend to build, starting with the Tianhe-1 core module, very similar in design as the Zvezda Service Module on ISS.
I know there is lots of propaganda that has been trying to make us believe that everything China builds is crap and nobody knows how to operate it, but when it comes to their space program, that is absolutely not true. And don't kid yourself, the fact that China is proposing manned missions to the moon has EVERYTHING to do with our own sudden interest in going back.
I'm aware of the motivations. But that does not mean the intentions or the program itself were not peaceful. We're arguing over nothing.
I don't care for pissing matches. You can take it that I'm pretty aware of the aerospace industry and quite a bit about it. But you don't have to. Compared to their stated intentions in human spaceflight, it is a lethargic program. Compared to JAXA, it's positively vigorous. It's a matter of comparison. The same argument could be made that the US's program hasn't had much to show for the last decade, but it belies that real work is being done on a lunar station, and by next year there will be three separate American spaceflight vehicles as well as several unmanned space planes (the X-37s and Dreamchaser) . In my opinion, yes, the Chinese program is tepid. I'm glad they're trying, though.
You assume way too much, and I find it annoying. So i am going to bore you to death. There may be collateral damage. Folks, loook away. Take a no doze.
Now where did I say "China builds crap?" The Shenzhou is a fine design that has been proven. When you look at all the manned space vehicles that did not quite make it (X-38, Kliper, Hermes, Hope, OSP, Venture Star, Zond, 714, et cetera ad nauseum) it's amazing they got to where they are now.
China going to the moon doesn't have much to do with the Gateway station or Artemis program. It's quite possible SpaceX will get there second anyway (there is no race to first, that got decided long ago), so if China wants to go, good for them. The moon is just the most natural place to go, especially Shackleton, right now. Zubrin and the people he influenced like Musk are crazy about Mars, so that was bound to be the ambitious goal, and one that crops up every decade or so. Mike Griffin sold Bush on a plan that that was overly complicated and was never going to hit target dates or budgets. I'm not against the component parts of it. Just as a whole, it could not come together. It was not as outlandish as the Truly plan, but it was again over ambitious, with the Moon, Mars and Beyond being a case of overreaching when it was clear there was no backup plan. Frankly a lot of it looks like it was overdone on purpose (the roller coaster, for instance), or the insistence on Ares V when a simple series of side-mounted shuttle-c derivatives could have got the job done, or the invented blackzones to keep Delta IV Heavy from being considered for crew launch (and yet 20 years later, Delta IV remains the only craft to put an Orion into orbit). It got so bad that a rival plan developed by a group of concerned engineers and enthusiasts called Direct, to replace the Ares I/Ares V launch system, but it too was doomed, or depending on who you talk to, led to SLS. This stop and start and restart and have more meetings about the restart led to even more delays.
China doesn't "build crap", but if it was ever serious about starting a race, these doldrums would have been the time to get working seriously. They had the money and the political will. But that's not what happened.
The next president comes in, Griffin's snake oil show is done, and its time to rip it up and start again. Then the ARM project looked interesting in a "Well, that's all we're getting so we might as well smile for the cameras and pretend to like it" kind of way, but Mars was never going to get the funding it needed, and ARM wasn't sexy enough to anyone involved in paying the bills. It was mostly a placeholder as the Obama administration seemed to loose interest in any real program after Congress rejected Lori Garver's plan (whodathunkit.. I might actually be familiar with some of this stuff.. no that cant be) and basically went about quietly working on SLS because Senator Shelby wanted it and no one else seemed to give a damn as long as they supported something, so the 135 ton SLS phase 2 it had to be, even if it didn't have a real mission, and oh, why not keep working on Orion, and when it gets too expensive, bring in ESA and see if they can bring anything to the table. The good that came out of that period was commercial resupply and commercial crew.
China launched a few Shenzhou during that time, and a space station that lasted about as long as any early Salyut. This wasn't a vigorous program to rival Russia or America, and build that same level of launch rate or confidence in hardware. It wasn't catching up, it was doing whatever it was they intended to do with it. This is not to denigrate the Chinese space program. It is simply to say their actions haven't matched the state propaganda about their intentions.
So yes now serious talk of putting people and their stuff on the moon. We might have gotten to Artemis program by it being a default choice after most of the others fizzled, but its where we need to be going for now, anyway. It's simple enough to explain to Cheetoh, and he thinks he might see it happen in his presidency and if he occasionally forgets it a multinational program, who cares. Despite all the blunders and missteps metal is getting bent, fiber is being wound and there has been enough progress in the last couple of decades to finally have something like a lunar program There's not a race to the Moon. That race was won, and there's no rematch. But there will be interest in going there by multiple parties, and I hope more people do so. There won't be another space race like Apollo. And that's fine. It's a new era. Personally, I hope that Lunar Gateway is opened up to more partners including India and China. The old paradigms don't work, now. Rant over. I can use a lot of text too.
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I apologize, I have just had to listen to so much from my roommates on certain issues that it has become the default position as of late, and I seem to always approach the subject with my shields up. It was not meant to direct at you specifically, so again I apologize
not a problem. space is cold but discussions about it heat up. its good to meet someone else passionate about spaceflight
Manned spaceflight is a very important thing to me, especially in the last decade of my life. I just happen to be one of those rare spaceflight enthusiasts who completely divorce political allegiance from the equation. This also means that I acknowledge harsh truths, rather than cloaking them under patriotism. And that doesn't extend to just Congress vs. NASA, I may absolutely adore the history of the Soviet space program, but I fully acknowledge how absurd and downright stupid the Politburo was with their funding and support of it.
To me, the most important thing is what is done and who does it, not what flag is printed on the side of their spacecraft. Politics be damned, I think the Shenzhou is an awesome space vehicle. Basically, take everything the Soyuz did well, and make it better.
Well, was watching a documentary the other day, said how Kennedy wanted to reach out to russia and do a joint mission with them, maybe. But then he was shot, and then it was of great importance to win the space race for Kennedy.. so his assassination put aside any type of joint mission.
So basically.. there was a momentum afterwards that couldnt be stopped.. So much space fever, look at 2001, by that time we'd have moon bases, space wheels etc. because they belived that we would continue at that pace.. wish we did..
So basically.. there was a momentum afterwards that couldnt be stopped.. So much space fever, look at 2001, by that time we'd have moon bases, space wheels etc. because they belived that we would continue at that pace.. wish we did..
It was one step more disturbing than that. Kennedy and Khrushchev were negotiating to bring an end to the Cold War by 1965. But then Kennedy was shot in 63, and Khrushchev was removed from power in 64, leaving the Cold War to rage on for another quarter century.....
.... coincidence? It seems we had our own Admiral Cartwright and General Chang,... but no Kirk and Sulu to stop them.
We should of gone Orion. Not the pansy orion we got to today I mean the REAL Orion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)
Still could - just do it outside Earth's magnetosphere.
One Orion has nothing to do with the other, its just the name they chose. I happen to like the Orion MPCV and woke up super early (twice) to catch that first launch on a Delta-IV HeavyWe should of gone Orion. Not the pansy orion we got to today I mean the REAL Orion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)
Moon would be a good launch point or mars.
I do dream that some country has the balls to do it.
Though some of the newer proposals actually sorted the problem of fallout out.
Yes I know.
The strategic test ban treaty precludes the peaceful use of nukes in the Earth's atmosphere. It would also be a highly unpopular move for any politician who approved such usage. Any assurance that the number of extra cases of cancer per year would be minimal would likely be disbelieved. Even with modern weapon design, there would still be environmental impact. Away from Earth, I agree with the late Carl Sagan that it would be a much better use for fissionable material than in bombs.
Orion was a sledgehammer approach. And while it might have been doable not all of the problems had been worked out. Trying to navigate by atomic pulse in the solar system using Apollo era guidance and control might have been impossible. It's interesting to think of what could have happened. I do think we must have nuclear propulsion but that time came and went, if it ever had a time.
My favorite design of the last few years is Slough's Fusion Driven Rocket, which dispenses with the difficulties of sustained controlled fusion, and uses the thrust of an imploded liner material. In practical terms It's kind of the spiritual descendant from nuclear Orion.
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/636883main_FDR_talk_NIAC_2012_final.pdf
My favorite design of the last few years is Slough's Fusion Driven Rocket, which dispenses with the difficulties of sustained controlled fusion, and uses the thrust of an imploded liner material. In practical terms It's kind of the spiritual descendant from nuclear Orion.
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/636883main_FDR_talk_NIAC_2012_final.pdf
That's incredible.
I agree. I wish there'd been more follow up with it, but from what I gather, Slough become more involved in his other startup, Helion, which if successful stands to make a few trillion.
You can bet your ass if China ever lands a man on the Moon the politics of space travel would suddenly change.
Oh its already in progress. China has been slowly building up their space program, and even though there is load of propaganda trying to make us think China is woefully backwards in everything they do, you know DAMNED well that this renewed interest in pushing us back into heavy space development is to get our foothold back on the Moon before China starts painting it red (figuratively of course, though there are no doubt some people who fear they were LITERALLY do that, just as they did with the Soviet Union, a lifetime ago)
In part why I hate the whole "America first" mindset when it comes to things like this.
BTW I read this online but am not going to say if its true or not but doesn't the USA have enough oil internally through drilling to provide for itself? So why does it need the Middle East's oil if it can make enough for itself?