I've never seen any mention of the 1964 TV marionette show Stingray being an influence on Roddenberry, but I just started watching it and I think it is unmistakable. I vaguely remember seeing Stingray as a kid but hadn't thought about the show until I noticed it was available on Amazon Prime. After watching the first 3 episodes I started noticing all sorts of things that seem familiar from TOS, but knowing that Stingray came first. The timing in '64 vs TOS in '66 is just right for it to have been a source of inspiration to Roddenberry. Has anyone ever seen a quote or story where Stingray is cited? It would be fun if some others watch a few episodes and see what you notice. I'll mention 3 things: One is the acceleration rate numbers used in Stingray rather than speed, as an inspiration for warp factors. A second, visible in episode 3, is the visual of the 2 ship drivers in the foreground (ala Sulu, Chekov) with the boss and beautiful babe in the background (Kirk, Chapel). The third is the general look of the aliens vs look of Klingons. There are many other things such as music style and controls. What do you think? Is it obvious to you too or is there an earlier common source that I'm not thinking of?
The Influence of Stingray on Star Trek?
- Thread starter jeffamm
- Start date
Just the opposite, in fact. Roddenberry's first Star Trek proposal document was dated March 11, 1964, and he had been developing the concept since at least 1960. The first pilot, "The Cage," was filmed in November-December 1964. Stingray debuted in the United Kingdom on October 4, 1964 and did not debut in the United States until January 2, 1965. There is no way that Roddenberry could have been aware of it.
If two things are on at the same time or very close together, you should always assume that any similarity between them is coincidental. Creative works take a long time to develop and produce, so if the time lag between them is short, it's almost guaranteed that the later one was conceived before the earlier one premiered. Also, nobody wants to be accused of plagiarism or unoriginality, so when creators do become aware of a recent or contemporary work that's similar to what they're doing, they will change what they're doing to make it different. (For instance, X-Men: First Class abandoned a planned dream sequence with revolving rooms when they learned Inception was doing one first.) So such close similarities are usually evidence that the latter creator was not aware of the earlier work, unless it's something sufficiently old and iconic that such homage can be expected.
That's a difference, not a similarity. Warp factors have always been treated as if they were set speeds.
Chapel? I'd think Uhura or Rand would make more sense in that analogy, but it's still a hell of a stretch either way. Any similarity in set design is probably due to a mix of real-life naval precedent and what looks visually interesting on camera.
That's just the Orientalism of the era, the racial stereotype of the Yellow Peril and the exotic Other being transposed to a sci-fi setting. Many TV and film aliens from the period were based in the same stereotypes.
Also commonplace elements of the era as a whole.
In Stingray, though, the captain/star/Kirk-equivalent is the pilot, seated at the left controls. Viewers would be very familiar with that arrangement from aircraft settings. In that episode, I believe, the base commander went along for the mission, he wasn't part of the crew.
Commander Shore was never part of the crew of Stingray AFAIK, normally it was Captain Tempest, Phones and Marina, but IIRC Sub-Lieutenant Fisher (a junior controller @ HQ) occasionally took over the right seat if one of the two mains was unavailable (though that might have been in comic rather than the series).
Per Caretaker, larger Starfleet auxiliary vessel might operate on this principle too.
In fifty years of following Trek I have never heard or seen a whisper or tidbit indicating Stingray was any influence whatsoever on TOS.
The most evident influences I’ve seen are Forbidden Planet, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits and Roddenberry’s involvement with Have Gun—Will Travel and The Lieutenant.
GR might also have gotten some ideas from some of the SF films of the mid 1950s to early ‘60s.
The most evident influences I’ve seen are Forbidden Planet, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits and Roddenberry’s involvement with Have Gun—Will Travel and The Lieutenant.
GR might also have gotten some ideas from some of the SF films of the mid 1950s to early ‘60s.
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And of course Roddenberry also read science fiction in prose. A lot what made Star Trek so significant was that it took concepts (and writers) from prose science fiction and publicized them for a mass audience. There's a lot of influence from pulp-era space opera, the work of folks like "Doc" Smith and Edmond Hamilton, as well as later works through the '50s and '60s that dealt in concepts like multispecies starship crews and interstellar federations, non-interference directives, "subspace" technologies, robots, etc. Possibly some Asimovian influence -- I know Roddenberry and Asimov were friends by the time of TMP, though I don't know if that began before or after TOS. And the heavy use of psi powers in TOS suggests an influence, conscious or otherwise, by influential editor John W. Campbell, whose belief in such things was a major factor in their prominence in the SF of the era, since so many writers learned to write toward his preferences in order to get published.
Really, any truly worthwhile work of science fiction on the screen has got to draw from prose influences. If your only knowledge of SF is what's in movies and television, you're barely scratching the surface of the genre. Most of that is entry-level stuff, and if screen creators are borrowing only from other screen creators, then they're just recycling the same limited pool of concepts, which is what keeps so much of screen SF/fantasy so superficial and repetitive. ST, like The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits before it, stood out from the pack because of its grounding in written SF.
Really, any truly worthwhile work of science fiction on the screen has got to draw from prose influences. If your only knowledge of SF is what's in movies and television, you're barely scratching the surface of the genre. Most of that is entry-level stuff, and if screen creators are borrowing only from other screen creators, then they're just recycling the same limited pool of concepts, which is what keeps so much of screen SF/fantasy so superficial and repetitive. ST, like The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits before it, stood out from the pack because of its grounding in written SF.
His name was Commander Shore?! I did not know that, that's funny. So of course he wasn't part of the crew.
According to this article, Asimov was "a fan" of the series after he and Roddenberry exchanged letters following Asimov's TV Guide piece criticizing the series and there have been more than one published account of how Gene asked Asimov his advice on how to deal with the Shatner/Nimoy situation. By the accounts I've read, their friendship began during the series' network run.
Relevant portion:
After Asimov wrote his initial critique in TV Guide, he and Gene Roddenberry exchanged letters, and the two formidable sci-fi minds became friends and even collaborators thereafter. A 1967 Time magazine profile described Asimov as "batting out books on a new electric typewriter, emerging only occasionally to watch Star Trek (his favorite TV show)," and he went on to become an advisor to the show. A Letters of Note post on Roddenberry and Asimov's correspondence contains a 1967 exchange wherein they put their heads together to solve the problem of how to give Captain Kirk lines as good as the ones that naturally go to a more unusual character like Spock.
Okay, thanks. That letter confirms that Roddenberry was a reader and fan of Asimov's work before Star Trek came along. And if he read Asimov, he surely read other contemporary SF -- Clarke, Heinlein, Sturgeon, Williamson, etc. After all, the main source for written SF back then was the magazines; novels were around, but were often compilations of magazine serials or fixups of independent stories.
Troy Tempest's eyebrow used to migrate further up his forehead the longer the episode went, and the more stressed he became.
As far as underwater adventurers, I much preferred the cartoon "Marine Boy" when I was a kid
I just thought I'd add that useless input
As far as underwater adventurers, I much preferred the cartoon "Marine Boy" when I was a kid
I just thought I'd add that useless input
As I understand it, the primary -direct- influences on Star Trek were Forbidden Planet (1956 - MGM) and the classic C.S. Forester Hornblower novels.
Roddenberry definitely read a lot of books throughout his life and I'm quite sure there's influence from Asimov and Art Clark, and probably even a touch of Heinlein in there as well...
Roddenberry definitely read a lot of books throughout his life and I'm quite sure there's influence from Asimov and Art Clark, and probably even a touch of Heinlein in there as well...
How much science fiction Roddenberry had read before Star Trek is unclear. I have a half-written article about the subject I should finish -- maybe as a Fact Trek piece.
Hmm, yeah, good point. Roddenberry may have said in his letter to Asimov that he was a fan of his writing, but I should know by now not to assume anything Roddenberry said was truthful. Still, he did hire a lot of real SF writers to work on the show, and I mentioned how many of its concepts were foreshadowed in the prose of preceding decades.
I would certainly like to see that article.
I like where it calls GR a formidable sci-fi mind. He was a writer in many genres. His SF pitch got produced and did ok at the time, but a sci-fi mind? You are prompting me to go read some, though, so thank you. An English major, I very rarely read fiction nowadays.
I bought Stingray for the kids a few years back and after one episode they wouldn't watch anymore! But then again I've tried to get my son to watch Trek with me and he will say he liked it or it was okay despite talking all the way through it but he never asks to see another one so then I stopped putting it on and he's not bothered!!! 
JB
JB
Stingray was my first foray into Supermarionation! 
One of the 4 channels (probably BBC2) repeated them throughout the summer holidays one year and I was hooked! I always liked the efficient, punchy story telling. Thunderbirds (when I eventually watched it) seemed incredibly padded out by comparison
One of the 4 channels (probably BBC2) repeated them throughout the summer holidays one year and I was hooked! I always liked the efficient, punchy story telling. Thunderbirds (when I eventually watched it) seemed incredibly padded out by comparison
I recall reading somewhere that Sam Peeples loaned him his collection of SF magazines to read for ideas and inspiration.
Is there any way of knowing in which markets Stingray aired then, and in which it wasn't aired? There are some UK shows which people clearly remember watching in East Coast markets, but which seem not to have been programmed on the West Coast.
IF Roddenberry was influenced by Supermarionation (and I doubt that he was) then it would probably have been Fireball XL5 rather than Stingray. At least Fireball XL5 was readily accessible, being run on Saturday mornings by NBC from 1963 to 1965.
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