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A question about the Botany Bay.

Perhaps after the incident in Balance of Terror Starfleet was ordered to withdraw it's main Starbases from that area of the Neutral Zone that or the entire area is larger than we thought? The Romulans talk of military campaigns but against whom we don't know? The Remans perhaps or planets within their borders that the Federation know very little about? :vulcan:
JB
 
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Except Sha Ka Ree is established as being located at the center of the galaxy.

In the mind of a madman, so this is the part we can completely ignore. The order of things remains

1) Madman quotes fairy tale
2) Kirk points out the fatal flaw in even trying to put the fairy tale to test
3) Madman goes to deep denial about the fatal flaw
4) Kirk drops the matter

and none of the further dialogue returns to the claim that the center of Milky Way would somehow be involved.

Another issue I have with ST 5 is, why would Sybok think that God resides in one particular spot, as opposed to being everywhere and woven into the fabric of everything? And if the fixed-residence, single Zip code God theory somehow held water, why would God then be at the center of our particular galaxy? Aren't there trillions of galaxies?

...Because God told him so? Some sort of telepathic rapport is implied there. And Sybok is perfectly willing to accept a God that is in wont of a starship, so having Him reside in a concrete Temple would appear fine, too.

But I see nothing wrong with Sybok thinking that this is the God of Milky Way. The universe beyond our little corner may have an infinite number of Supreme Beings, each omnipotent and omniscient and in total control of afterlife and whatnot. This doesn't stop us from having one of our very own.

About the Botany Bay, the thought has just occurred to me that Khan might have wanted to exile "supermen" who opposed him instead of executing them in order to seem reasonably but not excessively merciful to his fellow supermen.

...Loving this. Also, if only Spock's personal tin-hat research uncovers the disappearance of some eighty Augments, then odds are that they all didn't hail from the House of Khan or anything like that. The passenger manifest of the Botany Bay is bound to be diverse, and the corpsicles possibly at odds with each other. Did Khan ever bother to melt all the seventy? Or did he just melt his own cohorts, the handful of people we got to see, while leaving his mortal enemies in the ice for the time being?

The latter would help explain not only the failure of the budget to cater for 72 villains, but also the discrepancy between Scotty's claim of an ethnically diverse troupe vs. the all-Aryan group we actually got to see. OTOH, would Khan's opponents die when he ditched the depowered sleeper ship? Or would their cryoshelves transform into cryopods that could be moved to the holds of the Enterprise, ST:ID style? (If we want to believe in a low percentage of survival at Ceti Alpha V for TWoK and for the Khan who truly loves/needs all 72 of his co-Supermen, the latter would be preferable.)

The energy barrier in WNMHGB and BAON also appears in "Is There in Truth No Beauty?".

Yup, plenty of coverage there. And thus a nice excuse for ST5:TFF to introduce something new, and thankfully something unburdened by the long history of the Galactic Barrier, which by then would have been nothing but a pretty shower curtain the heroes would sweep aside when passing.

(Again, on topic, perhaps a similar storm repositioned the Botany Bay.)

Possible but IMHO undesirable - there already being the dramatic point that the ship lies where plenty of humans have gone before, but have found the location dull and moved on. A slow, old ship bravely trailblazing in an abandoned industrial backlot is an amusing and fitting image, and goes well with the discrepancy between prewarp and warp propulsion.

In a similar vein, perhaps Sybok's mind-meld treatment helped the Great Barrier get penetrated by giving everyone more or less singularity of purpose, a "psychic assist" to the exotic energy, if you will.

Intriguing and attractive. Although of course this wouldn't much explain why Klaa is the first Klingon to go there, if singularity of purpose for them is a hardwired trait and requires no onboard Sybok-equivalents.

Impenetrable barriers that then get penetrated appear logical as a thing: folks are initially cautious, and those who make it through and back may be motivated never to reveal that they did. OTOH, if going through a communications curtain is a breeze but something then eats the valiant travelers, progress will be slow - and here we already establish a threat force right behind the Barrier, apparently somehow luring all travelers to a very specific (or illusory?) spot there.

It's probably the same in ST:B - the villain making the exotic, shrouded location appear more dangerous than it really is, in order to control the inflow of victims to his own liking.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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Intriguing and attractive. Although of course this wouldn't much explain why Klaa is the first Klingon to go there, if singularity of purpose for them is a hardwired trait and requires no onboard Sybok-equivalents.
If there were psychic phenomena at play, then the mechanism for why Klaa's ship gets through might have been as simple as that he and his crew see the NCC-1701-A making it and that erases all doubt in their minds about whether it is possible.

OTOH, if going through a communications curtain is a breeze but something then eats the valiant travelers, progress will be slow - and here we already establish a threat force right behind the Barrier, apparently somehow luring all travelers to a very specific (or illusory?) spot there.
Those are good points. Maybe the reputed difficulty with the Great Barrier was from the danger of what lay beyond.

And maybe what people encountered there was at least in part a function of what they expected to find; if they expected to find a planet, they might see a planet, but there was still a malevolent being there trying to trick them into letting it out. There's an interesting parallel there with the other episode from Peeples besides WNMHGB, TAS "Beyond the Farthest Star."
 
In the mind of a madman, so this is the part we can completely ignore. The order of things remains

1) Madman quotes fairy tale
2) Kirk points out the fatal flaw in even trying to put the fairy tale to test
3) Madman goes to deep denial about the fatal flaw
4) Kirk drops the matter

and none of the further dialogue returns to the claim that the center of Milky Way would somehow be involved.

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing about. Here are the relevant lines:

Sybok: "Our destination...the planet Sha Ka Ree. It lies beyond the Great Barrier...at the center of the galaxy."
Kirk: "The center of the galaxy?"
Spock: "Where Sha Ka Ree is fabled to exist."
Kirk: "But the center of the galaxy can't be reached. No ship has ever gone into the Great Barrier. No probe has ever returned."

So Kirk explicitly states that the Great Barrier is located at the center of the galaxy. He says nothing about the distance involved in getting there. He only says that no ship has ever entered it. The only thing that the 'madman' states is that he thinks Sha Ka Ree lies beyond the Barrier. But that's irrelevant. EVERYONE involved in the discussion, 'madman' and sane people alike, have no problem whatsoever with the distance involved (or at the very least, don't bother mentioning it), because the scriptwriter didn't care about the distance. The whole point of this discussion was that 'distance' as a concept was meaningless in this film, whether it was how far an Earth space probe could have conceivably traveled in 300 years, to how fast a Constitution class starship and a Klingon BoP could conceivably fly from the Neutral Zone to the exact center of the Milky Way (6.7 hours at regular warp, in that case.)
 
The whole point of this discussion was that 'distance' as a concept was meaningless in this film, whether it was how far an Earth space probe could have conceivably traveled in 300 years, to how fast a Constitution class starship and a Klingon BoP could conceivably fly from the Neutral Zone to the exact center of the Milky Way (6.7 hours at regular warp, in that case.)
Distance being meaningless, to the degree that ships travel at the speed of plot, wasn't unique to STV. The list of episodes in which this was the case is long and covers every series, VOY included, and there are plenty of other such episodes in TOS besides "Space Seed."
 
Distance being meaningless, to the degree that ships travel at the speed of plot, wasn't unique to STV. The list of episodes in which this was the case is long and covers every series, VOY included, and there are plenty of other such episodes in TOS besides "Space Seed."

Oh, I know that things move at the speed of the plot. But in this particular instance, it’s almost an insult to our intelligence. Kind of like the scene in Star Trek '09 where Spock's turbolift ride from Engineering to the bridge takes about three seconds.
 
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I'm not quite sure what you're arguing about. Here are the relevant lines:

Sybok: "Our destination...the planet Sha Ka Ree. It lies beyond the Great Barrier...at the center of the galaxy."
Kirk: "The center of the galaxy?"
Spock: "Where Sha Ka Ree is fabled to exist."
Kirk: "But the center of the galaxy can't be reached. No ship has ever gone into the Great Barrier. No probe has ever returned."

So Kirk explicitly states that the Great Barrier is located at the center of the galaxy.

...What?

No, he does not. He just says that the center of the galaxy can't be reached, because of (no doubt among other things) this Great Barrier.

One can read a thousand things into that, from "You can't go to the Moon because nobody has jumped higher than two meters so far" to "You can't go to the Moon because the surface dust there is so deep your landing module will sink and be lost". But one can't claim any of that is explicit or even particularly implicit.

He says nothing about the distance involved in getting there. He only says that no ship has ever entered it.

Which is fine and well, because the statement in whole establishes that ships have it easy getting there, and only then get cold feet, while the lack of mention about distance allows us to think the distance is negligible here, even if distance in some other adventures is a formidable foe to starships. IOW, the Great Barrier is a nearby obstacle to travel in the direction of the galactic core, much like the Galactic Barrier is a nearby obstacle to travel to Andromeda in that basically identical adventure "By Any Other Name" which also fails to mention distance to the Barrier as a factor as the heroes concentrate on more relevant factors.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The entity at the centre of the galaxy sure wasn't God!!!
JB

What makes you think so? All the telltales appeared to be there: the urge to smite, the desire to give orders, the tendency to make promises, the apparent ability to do something about those things, the demonstrated failure to actually proceed much. What lies behind the telltales is subject to speculation.

Then again, Spock did state the entity was no God of any sort, which is rather odd when it was basically identical in behavior and abilities to so many Gods he had already met in person during TOS and TAS. Clearly, he did believe in Gods coming in "sorts", so the totality of his statement is especially jarring there.

Timo Saloniemi
 
...I'm sure somebody has a detailed taxonomy worked out - perhaps ol' LInnaeus himself already?

Timo Saloniemi
 
...Since when did any God we speak of demonstrate, declare or need the ability to leave Earth?

Timo Saloniemi
 
...What?

No, he does not. He just says that the center of the galaxy can't be reached, because of (no doubt among other things) this Great Barrier.

One can read a thousand things into that, from "You can't go to the Moon because nobody has jumped higher than two meters so far" to "You can't go to the Moon because the surface dust there is so deep your landing module will sink and be lost". But one can't claim any of that is explicit or even particularly implicit.

Doublespeak nonsense. The fact that the Enterprise and the BoP did in fact pass through the Barrier and on to Sha Ka Ree makes it implicit that the ships traveled to the center of the Galaxy (a 25,000 light year distance) in 6 hours, under their own power. And yet no one mentioned at all just how far they'd traveled in so short a time. So, again, either these characters know nothing about interstellar distances and the Barrier and Sha Ka Ree are in fact not at the center of the galaxy even though everyone explicitly states they are, or the ships just magically were that fast (as fast as the plot needed them to go, as @CorporalCaptain mentioned.)

...much like the Galactic Barrier is a nearby obstacle to travel to Andromeda in that basically identical adventure "By Any Other Name" which also fails to mention distance to the Barrier as a factor as the heroes concentrate on more relevant factors.i

Totally different scenario. The Kelvins upgraded the Enterprise's engines to be able to get to Andromeda in a much shorter period of time.
 
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Doublespeak nonsense.

No, saying that Kirk explicates something that he does not is. Are you insisting that your lie is a truth?

The fact that the Enterprise and the BoP did in fact pass through the Barrier and on to Sha Ka Ree makes it implicit that the ships traveled to the center of the Galaxy (a 25,000 light year distance) in 6 hours, under their own power.

Of course it doesn't. Replace "center of the Galaxy" with Sha Ka Ree and you have a working statement there. But you can't replace Sha Ka Ree with "center of the Galaxy" without first acknowledging that you are taking a fairy tale at face value. None of the characters in the movie stoop that low.

And yet no one mentioned at all just how far they'd traveled in so short a time.

And why would they, if the distance traveled is trivial?

So, again, either these characters know nothing about interstellar distances and the Barrier and Sha Ka Ree are in fact not at the center of the galaxy even though everyone explicitly states they are, or the ships just magically were that fast (as fast as the plot needed them to go, as @CorporalCaptain mentioned.)

Well, "again" indeed. In terms of actual movie dialogue, your "these characters" ought to read "Sybok and nobody but Sybok", and your "everyone explicitly" ought to read "Sybok and nobody but Sybok", but apparently hyperbole is mandatory in every claim of yours? (And alas, that's not really hyperbole.)

Totally different scenario. The Kelvins upgraded the Enterprise's engines to be able to get to Andromeda in a much shorter period of time.

No, a completely identical scenario: in both, the trip to the Barrier is the one that takes no plot time; incites no commentary from the characters for its failure to take that plot time; and can easily be argued to involve short distances because nothing to the contrary is ever stated.

That this scenario then has "Andromeda" in place of "Eden" is not related to the Barrier issue at all, and the related shenanigans only kick into gear after the Barrier issue is out of the way.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Based on the transcript, Timo has a case.
http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie5.html

You can argue that the Enterprise passes through a nearby Barrier that stands between us and the very distant center of the galaxy. And right beyond the Barrier is an isolated solar system with Sybok's god.

Sybok thinks they're going all the way to the center, based on the myth, and his dropping out of high school to be a space hippie. Then Kirk gives the Barrier as one reason the center of the galaxy can't be reached, and he just doesn't mention the distance, high stellar density, or black hole because in his mind that stuff either goes without saying, or the Barrier makes it all irrelevant.

So there is a fig leaf here if you look hard enough. I admit, I'm stunned by this. But I think it's there by accident, and the film makers were as dumb as Sybok.
 
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