STAR TREK V DIRECTOR´S CUT
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There weren't many fans clamoring for a Directors Edition of The Motion Picture either. It just sorta came out of nowhere, but the results were appreciated, resulting in either Directors or Collectors editions of every film to follow (to varying degrees of... specialness (if that isn't a word, it should be))
I'd shell out good money in a heartbeat for a professionally-produced special edition of TFF.
Suspect I've said this earlier in the thread, but while STV could undoubtedly be improved by new fx that did what Shatner dreamt of in 89, it would still only be a poor Trek film saved by good fx and good chemistry within the main three.
The plot would still be flawed, the treatment of any character where the actor couldn't say No belittling.... there is some good stuff (the Lawrence of Arabia opening, and the "It's all I have".), but not enough, even if the fx had been as good as Shatner wanted
The plot would still be flawed, the treatment of any character where the actor couldn't say No belittling.... there is some good stuff (the Lawrence of Arabia opening, and the "It's all I have".), but not enough, even if the fx had been as good as Shatner wanted
Besides the people who really like it and would enjoy it even more if it was improved...... a ton of people would beat curious to see what they had done with it even out of morbid curiosity for those people who don't like it that much. You wood have to hate the movie a whole lot to say "no I'm not even interested in looking at it again with a different edit and better special effects."
Human nature being what it is there would be a ton of people who would watch it just so they could come back and say how awful it still was
Human nature being what it is there would be a ton of people who would watch it just so they could come back and say how awful it still was
I appreciate that there are people who like the film, and I’m not interested in trying to change their minds. I on the other hand find the movie to be immensely flawed without even focusing on the VFX, and would not buy an updated version because it’s not the FX that’s the inherent problem with the film. It’s the story.
I don't have as much problem with the story as much as the presentation. I mean, its no worse than your average Season 3 episode of TOS.
And that’s the inherent problem. I don’t want to see an average season 3 episode of TOS. I want to see a film.
I watched this last night and tried to view it without the benefit of nostalgia. These are my thoughts:
I can absolutely see why this failed. There were too many cooks in the creative mix and not enough of them were writers. Meanwhile, the three writers on the project couldn't agree on what the film was aiming for. It's not like Shatner's original idea was very good. The starts off magnificently. Sybok’s intro really sets a tone. However, the majority of the film goes off the rails right after that. While Star Trek films always danced around what was possible, having Kirk free climbing brings the film right into fantasy. The humor is too broad and when they get into “moving bonding time” the clash of styles is a bit much. This film cannot seem to pick a lane. Throughout my re-viewing, the same thought kept crossing my mind: "nothing is subtle. Everything is obvious."
Also, as much as Shatner has a good cinematic eye, he cannot director actors. Just about everyone is playing for the cheap seats. For all of his crapping on Shatner, Doohan is awful. He’s not helped by the script, which is filled with clichéd and obvious dialog (his engineer’s log is a poor introduction) but really, only Nimoy plays Spock with the right tone. He’s actually pretty great. Shatner is alternately good as Kirk and then weird as Shatner pretending to be Kirk. Kelley does have his moment to shine during the euthanasia sequence. He’s just great. Luckenbill does his best. There’s just a lot of off kilter, out of character stuff.
The only time the film really works without apology were in the mystery sequences. Sybok’s entrance, the journey through the barrier and waiting for God to show up. All of that brings forth a sense of genuine awe. That’s the movie I wanted to see.
They needed a script doctor and a massive rewriting. It takes 45 minutes for the story to really get started. The humor was forced and over the top. The idea was workable and could have been a lot more successful if they spent time establishing Sybok’s relationship with Spock. Are they brothers? Or just “raised as” brothers? Who as the Vulcan “princess” to Sarek? If Sybok was merely adopted, why was he only the “son of Sarek?” Did Sarek get his concubine pregnant? Also, why are they acting like they’re still on a 5 year mission and need shore leave? Not just once but again at the end. In TWOK, they were all coming back for a training cruise. They weren’t on duty in the next two films at all. Now, suddenly, “let’s go camping!” And why do Sulu and Chekov have a similar shore leave activity as Kirk, Spock and McCoy? Why aren’t they at a bar or skiing?
Also, I don’t know it if was the cinematographer or maybe a different film stock, but there is an unfinished feel to this movie. A number of scenes are lit very flat and even the sound is un-nuanced at times. Mostly on the bridge.
This could have been a great movie with a new set of eyes on the script and less emphasis on the goofiness. But no amount of “Director’s Editioning” will change this film enough to fix the story and tone issues.
Having said all of that, I still enjoy the sense of adventure of family that made the best episodes great. And, of course, Jerry Goldsmith’s score is to die for. IT does try very hard to be a cinematic experience. However, it’s not nearly in the same league as the more mature films which preceded it. And as much as many fans consider TUC a return to form, it’s just as weird, over the top and goofy as this one.
I can absolutely see why this failed. There were too many cooks in the creative mix and not enough of them were writers. Meanwhile, the three writers on the project couldn't agree on what the film was aiming for. It's not like Shatner's original idea was very good. The starts off magnificently. Sybok’s intro really sets a tone. However, the majority of the film goes off the rails right after that. While Star Trek films always danced around what was possible, having Kirk free climbing brings the film right into fantasy. The humor is too broad and when they get into “moving bonding time” the clash of styles is a bit much. This film cannot seem to pick a lane. Throughout my re-viewing, the same thought kept crossing my mind: "nothing is subtle. Everything is obvious."
Also, as much as Shatner has a good cinematic eye, he cannot director actors. Just about everyone is playing for the cheap seats. For all of his crapping on Shatner, Doohan is awful. He’s not helped by the script, which is filled with clichéd and obvious dialog (his engineer’s log is a poor introduction) but really, only Nimoy plays Spock with the right tone. He’s actually pretty great. Shatner is alternately good as Kirk and then weird as Shatner pretending to be Kirk. Kelley does have his moment to shine during the euthanasia sequence. He’s just great. Luckenbill does his best. There’s just a lot of off kilter, out of character stuff.
The only time the film really works without apology were in the mystery sequences. Sybok’s entrance, the journey through the barrier and waiting for God to show up. All of that brings forth a sense of genuine awe. That’s the movie I wanted to see.
They needed a script doctor and a massive rewriting. It takes 45 minutes for the story to really get started. The humor was forced and over the top. The idea was workable and could have been a lot more successful if they spent time establishing Sybok’s relationship with Spock. Are they brothers? Or just “raised as” brothers? Who as the Vulcan “princess” to Sarek? If Sybok was merely adopted, why was he only the “son of Sarek?” Did Sarek get his concubine pregnant? Also, why are they acting like they’re still on a 5 year mission and need shore leave? Not just once but again at the end. In TWOK, they were all coming back for a training cruise. They weren’t on duty in the next two films at all. Now, suddenly, “let’s go camping!” And why do Sulu and Chekov have a similar shore leave activity as Kirk, Spock and McCoy? Why aren’t they at a bar or skiing?
Also, I don’t know it if was the cinematographer or maybe a different film stock, but there is an unfinished feel to this movie. A number of scenes are lit very flat and even the sound is un-nuanced at times. Mostly on the bridge.
This could have been a great movie with a new set of eyes on the script and less emphasis on the goofiness. But no amount of “Director’s Editioning” will change this film enough to fix the story and tone issues.
Having said all of that, I still enjoy the sense of adventure of family that made the best episodes great. And, of course, Jerry Goldsmith’s score is to die for. IT does try very hard to be a cinematic experience. However, it’s not nearly in the same league as the more mature films which preceded it. And as much as many fans consider TUC a return to form, it’s just as weird, over the top and goofy as this one.
Yes it's weird how some in scenes Shatner is great as Kirk and others (brig) he is awful.
Kelley, Nimoy and Luckinbill are graat thruout except when the humor is overblown. Score is perfect. The movie does no favors for Scott Uhura and Sulu. I think they are only good actors when they have good lines and they didn't have good lines in this movie. I thought Walter Koenig did a pretty good job.
I can accept a version of the movie where the parts of mr. Scott Sulu and Uhura are whittled way down. Because you would radically change the tone of the movie to being way less silly. I mean the movie is sybok and the big three. Little known fact sybok has more lines than any other Star Trek antagonist in any of the 13 movies. And in this movie he has more lines than Spock or McCoy do. I never had a problem with sybok being Spock's older brother from a different mother who apparently raised sybok until at some point she died and then he came to live with Sarek, Spock and Amanda for a time before he was banished. Although they clearly should have said Vulcan Priestess instead of Vulcan princess. That could have been fixed in post-production by looping over that word.
The movie is sybok and the big three and generally those four characters carry the movie well. I happen to agree that the climbing sequence was a very poor choice to show that Kirk was as McCoy put it playing games with life. He could have been doing some other dangerous activity that didn't stretch the audience's ability to accept as believable.
And as stated in the movie itself Kirk gave Scott 3 weeks to get the ship in shape and so I guess they all took some Shore leave -- why not? Maybe after Scott got the ship in perfect condition they were going to go out on a very long mission. And they did sustain some damage in the Klingon attack so at the end you could just assume they needed a short bit of time to fix whatever damage the Klingon torpedo caused and the crew went finished their Shore leave.
Oh yes I absolutely agree that that Scott voice-over was just plain awful. The line I think this ship was put together by monkeys is absolutely moronic. To show the beautiful Enterprise a at the end of Star Trek 4 and then open Star Trek V telling the audience that the replacement ship for the Beloved Enterprise was basically a piece of junk put together by monkeys was just so tone-deaf that it's hard to believe it was left in. In a re-edit edit they could cut it out the part where he says "I think this ship was put together by monkeys."
He could simply say....
" this new Enterprise -- she's got a fine engine but half the doors don't work and guess whose job it is to fix it?"
So the ship has has a good engine but has a few bugs and he's fixing it. As opposed to "the ship was put together by monkeys"
And what's the deal with mr. Scott and monkeys anyway? In Star Trek 3 he says "two trainees and a chimpanzee can run the automated Enterprise."
Does he have a fixation about monkeys. LOL
Kelley, Nimoy and Luckinbill are graat thruout except when the humor is overblown. Score is perfect. The movie does no favors for Scott Uhura and Sulu. I think they are only good actors when they have good lines and they didn't have good lines in this movie. I thought Walter Koenig did a pretty good job.
I can accept a version of the movie where the parts of mr. Scott Sulu and Uhura are whittled way down. Because you would radically change the tone of the movie to being way less silly. I mean the movie is sybok and the big three. Little known fact sybok has more lines than any other Star Trek antagonist in any of the 13 movies. And in this movie he has more lines than Spock or McCoy do. I never had a problem with sybok being Spock's older brother from a different mother who apparently raised sybok until at some point she died and then he came to live with Sarek, Spock and Amanda for a time before he was banished. Although they clearly should have said Vulcan Priestess instead of Vulcan princess. That could have been fixed in post-production by looping over that word.
The movie is sybok and the big three and generally those four characters carry the movie well. I happen to agree that the climbing sequence was a very poor choice to show that Kirk was as McCoy put it playing games with life. He could have been doing some other dangerous activity that didn't stretch the audience's ability to accept as believable.
And as stated in the movie itself Kirk gave Scott 3 weeks to get the ship in shape and so I guess they all took some Shore leave -- why not? Maybe after Scott got the ship in perfect condition they were going to go out on a very long mission. And they did sustain some damage in the Klingon attack so at the end you could just assume they needed a short bit of time to fix whatever damage the Klingon torpedo caused and the crew went finished their Shore leave.
Oh yes I absolutely agree that that Scott voice-over was just plain awful. The line I think this ship was put together by monkeys is absolutely moronic. To show the beautiful Enterprise a at the end of Star Trek 4 and then open Star Trek V telling the audience that the replacement ship for the Beloved Enterprise was basically a piece of junk put together by monkeys was just so tone-deaf that it's hard to believe it was left in. In a re-edit edit they could cut it out the part where he says "I think this ship was put together by monkeys."
He could simply say....
" this new Enterprise -- she's got a fine engine but half the doors don't work and guess whose job it is to fix it?"
So the ship has has a good engine but has a few bugs and he's fixing it. As opposed to "the ship was put together by monkeys"
And what's the deal with mr. Scott and monkeys anyway? In Star Trek 3 he says "two trainees and a chimpanzee can run the automated Enterprise."
Does he have a fixation about monkeys. LOL
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In the Making of book, written by Lisabeth Shatner so very much on his side, yet still comes across as him being an incompetent idealist who didn't plan a bit of wriggle room for problems, they quote an important discussion as to how Spock and Sybok were half-brothers. Who should be older, who more influential, etc.
Yeah, Koenig didn't do that badly, he actually had a couple of really nice moments. It's actually rare when he's the best of the Gang of Four. Go Walter!
I would be fine with that scenario being the situation with Sybok if they made it more clear. Fewer jokes and more background would have fleshed out some of these anomalies. How about saving a little screen time to actually delve into the "God" creature? Why was it imprisoned there? Who are his jailers? How did he convince Sybok he was God? Did this creature start the legend of Sha ka Rhee? Did he fake what became the basis of a religious belief? And if all that is in doubt, did they actually go to the center of the Galaxy, or was that the creature falsifying the readings? Honestly, that's a more interesting story!
Scotty getting three weeks is a great example of how this movie has both great dialog and shitty dialog in the same exchange:
"You promised me you could have the ship ready in two weeks, I gave you three, what happened?"
"I think you gave me too much time, Captain." This is an amazing line and thrown away as it should be - Doohan is good here.
"Very well, Mr. Scott, carry on." A great resigned response by Shatner.
and then...
"How many times do I have to tell ya? The right tool for the right job!" What the f'k? Doohan is all of a sudden a cartoon again with a slogan standing in for dialog. He could be just as worked up with a "are ya daft, lad? The spanner not the converter!"
Okay, fine, having the crew chill on Earth while Scotty fixes the ship is all well and good. But going all the way back to Earth instead of, I dunno, a star base... I always felt they could have had the exact same exchange during the party with the Klingons. In fact, it would have been a nice capper.
After their "Cosmic Thoughts" Spock starts playing his Lyre. It's "row row row your boat."
Kirk smiles. McCoy has a "oh dear God no" look in his face. Kirk starts singing. Spock jumps in. Then the whole main cast walks over. Everyone is involved. Final shot of the Enterprise and the BoP leaving Sha Ka Rhree with the singing fading back as the Star Trek theme begins.
However, Shatner's acting in the final campfire scene is a lot more relaxed and less "actory" than at the start of the film. I just don't know why Bones is so damned grumpy. He didn't resist singing before. Maybe he's sober this time...
Yeah, I would too. No doubt the movie has it's flaws. As it stands I have it 13/13 of all the Trek films. With improved Special Effects and some improved editing I could see bumping it up to 12/13 above Insurrection. I 'liked' Insurrection, but it too had flaws. BUT it at least looks like a professionally made film, had some great cinematography (one of the highlights IMO) and it 'flowed' well enough, for lack of a better word. But with improved effects and editing I can see TFF switching places.
I enjoyed the character moments (though not the goofy attempts at humor--which I blame Paramount for because they clearly wanted to try to recapture TVH--the humor there was much more organic and made sense considering the tone of the movie overall). I liked Laurence Luckinbill, and of course the music score.
Improved special effects aren't going to suddenly make this the best film of the franchise. But I always say at least it would look like a proper Star Trek film. It really sticks out like a sore thumb. All the other Star Trek films have at the very least decent special effects. Some are better than others, but TFF is the only one with bad effects. The only scenes I might keep would be the Enterprise near the moon (which actually is a beautiful shot) and maybe the "god" beam effect near the end. I kind of liked the scene on Nimbus III at night with the moons too, maybe I'd retain that as well. The rest I would either clean up or just re-do altogether. Oh, and I'd try to clean up the ridiculous scene in the turboshaft where you see things like Deck 142 (or whatever it was) and they didn't even go in any real order. I read somewhere Herman Zimmerman tried telling Shatner that the Enterprise-A only had so many decks (was it 12?) but Shatner didn't care.
I do remember reading that for all his personal problems with Shatner, George Takei did say Shatner was good in the director's chair. He wasn't an ogre or anything and I believe he said something to the effect that he would take things into consideration that were said to him.
More like 21 decks, but I had an idea to fix that. It would require a whole new shoot, but we're talking fantasy booking here. After climbing up about five decks, Kirk scoots into a horizontal shaft and starts scooting along. Bones huffs and puffs as he tries to hoist himself up into the horizontal section, having considerable trouble with it as his voice echoes "Jim, this is gonna take me forever"
Kirk scoots back to help bones into the horizontal shaft when he looks around and asks "Where's Spock" at which point he zooms up from underneath with the boots, saying "I believe I have found a faster way" and CUT THE SCENE THERE!
To be fair about this point, at the end of TVH, the entire crew is acting like the Enterprise-A is their new assignment, even though it was only Kirk who was given command of the ship and the rest of the crew were either already commanders or captains themselves. It really didn't make a whole lot of sense.
Well, to be additionally fair, ship captains get to pick their crews, at the very least their senior staff. When given the option, I'm sure the entire senior staff would jump on board without hesitation. Plus, Scotty was a senior member of the Constitution-class refit team, so he would be uniquely suited to getting this rickety barge running again.
I wonder if the refit was actually flawed, to where any brand new one that wasn't built off an existing Connie spaceframe was essentially doomed to failure by its design
But Scotty was going to be transferred to the Excelsior, to be Captain of Engineering, whatever the hell that means. All of these people were either of commander rank (Chekov, Uhura), already in command of a ship (Spock), or about to get a command (Sulu). And McCoy was already retired as of TMP. Why would they suddenly take downgrades in their careers just to all serve under Kirk, when their duties should have been handled by lesser-ranking officers?
Captain of engineering" - oh Lord that was the dumbest thing ever. Did the actors actually feel happy being pandered to Like That by The Producers?
I mean the the characters all served aboard the same ship because the fans wanted to see all the characters on the same ship. It's not Star Trek 5's fault that no matter how many movies they made they were going to try to cram in all 7 actors. I assume that unless they could have their own ship they might as well have preferred to serve on the Enterprise with Kirk. But if they were offered a ship like Sulu then of course they would take the post. The exception was Spock who never seemed all that interested in being the captain of a ship.
I mean the the characters all served aboard the same ship because the fans wanted to see all the characters on the same ship. It's not Star Trek 5's fault that no matter how many movies they made they were going to try to cram in all 7 actors. I assume that unless they could have their own ship they might as well have preferred to serve on the Enterprise with Kirk. But if they were offered a ship like Sulu then of course they would take the post. The exception was Spock who never seemed all that interested in being the captain of a ship.
In TMP, Scotty was in charge of refitting Enterprise, and probably by extension the entire Constitution-class Refit project
While in SFS he was promoted to Captain and put in charge of Excelsior, what he ended up doing to it likely stripped him of that position and his rank, as in Voyage Home he was no longer wearing Captain insignia, but Commander.
However when the Enterprise-A ended up not living up to specs, who better to put in charge of getting it back in working order but the one who was in charge of the refit in the first place?
Checkov wouldn't be the only one of Commander rank to turn down a command in order to stay on the ship he loved. Riker anyone? And having previous XO experience had him bumped up to either Fourth in command behind Scotty, or Third in command as Scotty had no interest in commanding. Getting the hot seat over Sulu was a plus I'm sure. Uhura was apparently never interested in command positions,... hell, she chose a Transporter Room in SpaceDock as her temporary assignment. While there was a reason for that choice, she clearly had no trouble being bored in a dull position. Or, bored from "Mr. Adventure"s point of view. Spock also had no real desire to command either. Even in Wrath of Khan, he said "As a teacher on a training mission, I am content to command the Enterprise. Were we to go on actual duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command"
And given his situation, still recovering from the Fal Tor Pan ritual to restore his Katra, he wasn't quite in command shape again yet.
As for McCoy, ever since TMP, he just jumped right back into his medical duties like nothing had ever changed, even in the several years between TMP and Wrath.
I wouldn't say any of them were taking downgrades, as many of them were still in the same position they wanted to be in. Even Scotty would later go on to say "I may be Captain by rank, but I never wanted to be anything other than an Engineer" And its not like anyone is taking a pay cut, because they aren't exactly getting paid anyway
The issue was that at the time, Paramount's plan was to have both the new Enterprise-D crew have the TV adventures on TNG, and the old crew were to have adventures in the films, concurrently, on the Enterprise-A. The inherent problem with this scenario, however, was that the old crew were past their prime for this, not to mention that the TNG crew started to overshadow them (which Shatner, Nimoy and the rest did not expect to have happen.) It would have been different had the future films dealt with the old crew going their separate ways, but TFF blew that idea out of the water by essentially putting the entire cast right back to where they were in TOS. It was unrealistic, it ultimately didn't work, and a final film had to be made to pretty much address this inherent problem.
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