ST canon is inconsistent and contradictory.

[Boris Skrbic]

There are other things, such as General Hux, who according to TFA and TLJ is the third highest ranking person in the First Order, after Snoke and Kylo Ren, a fact which is confirmed in the comics. Then suddenly in Rise of Skywalker, there's General Pryde, who outranks Hux and has been around since the First Order's Imperial days. You need the Visual Dictionary to explain things there.

I don’t need the VD to see that Hux was competing with Ren for Snoke’s attention and definitively lost when Ren killed Snoke. It’s obvious from their history that Kylo would’ve looked for someone to outrank Hux, and the VD merely clarifies where exactly Pryde came from.

And we have seen evidence of the decrees of the Story Group being walked back after negative backlash from the fans, like the infamous incident in 2015 when they tried saying that Ewoks should not be called Ewoks anymore but rather "Endor natives."

Where can I find the Story Group comments for context? Presumably Ewoks are not the only ”Endor natives”, so this sounds more like a stylistic alternative than any kind of walk-back of established terminology.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Maybe, but I do give a lot of credit to Star Wars for instead trying to think outside the box instead using bumpy forehead aliens all the time. Even a dangerous gangster was a big nasty blob of rubber pudding. And somehow it worked.

I mean, in The Siege of 558, the one where the Starfleet soldiers are defending that cave, everyone was a human. Even the reinforcements that arrived later were all human. It's like, sometimes the show just forgets.

I think its a difference of focus.

From a certain point of view?

I think it's probably unintentional, but humans are often portrayed as the face of the Federation, to the point where the terms "Federation" and "humanity" is interchangeable in their dialog.

Even that speech Quark gave about humans becoming uncivilized if they lose their comforts--it involved only humans. The entire Federation was fighting for survival, and humans aren't the only members. 150 planets or more at last count.

And the planet was important to defend. There should be a fair mixture of different Fed members there defending the planet.

So why limit the speech to only humans except, well, there were only humans soldiers there.

I do think SW makes good use of using aliens, so that it seems like it's a large universe and other types of aliens have influence.

 

[fireproof78]

I do think SW makes good use of using aliens, so that it seems like large universe and other types of aliens have influence.

But the POV characters are all human, and, as you note, crafts a larger universe. Star Trek was created with the idea of future humanity. Now, that might sound highly species-centric but the stories are reflective of both entertaining humans as well as commentary on humanity's development. I don't see the human centric nature as a bad thing. Largely because I believe it is a powerful storytelling device to have people who are human that we can identify as human being capable of more than current humanity. Aliens are cool and all and I identify with Spock, but I identify with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke from the Last Jedi and Spock's struggle to fit in with humans far more indefinable than Worf's struggle with dishonor.

Now, do I think Star Trek could do a better job fleshing out the universe? Hmmm, right now, yes. Back in the 90s with the different books and tech manuals and the like I would say no. Because I could find ways to immerse myself in those books. I think that Kelvin Trek needed more of that.

And finally, in my opinion, Star Wars and Star Trek are two different animals. One is fantastical space fantasy which means the world can be developed from whatever Lucas wanted. That's why we have the Wolf-man mask in the cantina scene. That's not an alien-it's a wolf man! Star Trek is a look at humans. And, what is even more telling to me about this is the supposed "spiritual successor" in the Orville has a main cast that is primarily human-the captain, the helmsman, the first officer, the navigator, the doctor. Why?

 

[Trekkie27]

The Enterprise C captain in "Yesterday's Enterprise" was a female.

 

[fireproof78]

The Enterprise C captain in "Yesterday's Enterprise" was a female.

And Saavik was on the command track, and the captain of the Saratoga in Star Trek 4 is a female.

Also, in the TMP novel one admiral was female too.

 

[FederationHistorian]

She was working for a sexist prig in TOS Pike, the DIS Pike was from another universe

I think when dealing with the women can’t be captains idea during the TOS era, it should be considered that Pike could not get used to a woman on the bridge during “The Cage”, despite Una being Number One and seeing her as different. Of course, Pike also considered quitting and being involved in the Orion slave girls trade. And Boyce thought Pike treated everyone one board like a human being, except Pike. He likely changed his views - at least somewhat - between 2254 and 2257, since there are more female officers on the bridge in DSC.

Sexism may have been a thing in the upper echelons of Starfleet during the 2250s and 2260s, although I can’t fathom why. The mid-22 century seemed more openminded than the mid-23rd century, and then attitudes returned to being openminded again in the by the mid-24th century.

And finally, in my opinion, Star Wars and Star Trek are two different animals. One is fantastical space fantasy which means the world can be developed from whatever Lucas wanted. That's why we have the Wolf-man mask in the cantina scene. That's not an alien-it's a wolf man! Star Trek is a look at humans. And, what is even more telling to me about this is the supposed "spiritual successor" in the Orville has a main cast that is primarily human-the captain, the helmsman, the first officer, the navigator, the doctor. Why?

Meh. The Mass Effect series is better at making truly diverse aliens species matter to the central story and giving their POVs than Star Wars and Star Trek. The Orville is wait-and-see for now.

 

[fireproof78]

Meh. The Mass Effect series is better at making truly diverse aliens species matter to the central story and giving their POVs than Star Wars and Star Trek. The Orville is wait-and-see for now.

Meh. I prefer Trek. Mass Effect species are not engaging for me.

Also, video game vs. TV series.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think when dealing with the women can’t be captains idea during the TOS era, it should be considered that Pike could not get used to a woman on the bridge during “The Cage”, despite Una being Number One and seeing her as different. Of course, Pike also considered quitting and being involved in the Orion slave girls trade. And Boyce thought Pike treated everyone one board like a human being, except Pike. He likely changed his views - at least somewhat - between 2254 and 2257, since there are more female officers on the bridge in DSC.

Sexism may have been a thing in the upper echelons of Starfleet during the 2250s and 2260s, although I can’t fathom why. The mid-22 century seemed more openminded than the mid-23rd century, and then attitudes returned to being openminded again in the by the mid-24th century.

I'm generally all for explaining things away, but not in this case. I flatly refuse to explain a mindset that should stay in the 1960s where it belongs. They were even smart enough to cut that exchange out of "The Menagerie" in 1966. If it had no place in 1966, it definitely has no place in 2020. It shouldn't be acknowledged because it doesn't deserve to be acknowledged.

DSC Pike = The Correct Version.

 

[Orphalesion]

Yeah there is just no possible in-universe explanation for the sexism shown on those occassions iland any idea that there was some sort of brief revival of 1960s gender dynamics in the 23 century is beyond silly. TOS was a TV show made in the 60s and reflected that time. It doesn't gel with the newer shows or with any sort of real world logic in the gender topic and the only thing to do is to accept that those instances and statements just aren't Canon for the later shows.

As for the "the main characters are human because it's a show for humans" ehhh... The Lord of the Rings is a book for humans and the main characters are Hobbits (which, granted are a human sub-species, but I'd say they're about as different/similar from/to humans in their portrayal as the average rubber forehead alien) and the only human among the central characters is a special, low-key magical breed of human with super powers and a multiple-century lifespan so...yeah no.
I think the prevalence of humans in both Star Trek and Star Wars is a logistic result. It's not only easier and more time and cost-effective to have the majority of the main characters human, but I bet a good chunk of actors prefer roles that don't hide them behind layers of latex or heavy gci.
I for one find characters like Kira, Garak and Quark to be just as relatable, if not quite a bit more, than ST's human characters.

 

[Lord Garth]

If I were to do a re-edit of "The Cage", after Colt delivers the report to Pike and Number One says Colt's replacing his former Yeoman, I'd still have Pike say, "She does a good job, it's just that I can't--" and then I'd cut it off right there, as if he can't finish the sentence. Cut to Pike looking down. Number One turns around when he doesn't finish. She sees Pike still like that. Then she turns around again, knowing that he's still in a funk.

The way I'd cut it, it would imply that he's still not over the death of the Yeoman who died on Rigel VII. It would keep Pike's character arc with the episode intact, strengthen the drama to it, and also make the scene not be sexist.

If they were to ever remake "The Cage" with Anson Mount (I'm not saying they should, I'm just saying if they did}, I think this is how they should handle that scene.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Meh. I prefer Trek. Mass Effect species are not engaging for me.

Also, video game vs. TV series.

Technically movies vs tv series vs video games.

Although I do wonder where The Mandalorian fits into this. Or the Clone Wars & Rebels cartoon.

I'm generally all for explaining things away, but not in this case. I flatly refuse to explain a mindset that should stay in the 1960s where it belongs. They were even smart enough to cut that exchange out of "The Menagerie" in 1966. If it had no place in 1966, it definitely has no place in 2020. It shouldn't be acknowledged because it doesn't deserve to be acknowledged.

DSC Pike = The Correct Version.

I personally don’t censor anything, although I wholeheartedly understand the sentiment.

Yeah there is just no possible in-universe explanation for the sexism shown on those occassions iland any idea that there was some sort of brief revival of 1960s gender dynamics in the 23 century is beyond silly.

Yes, it is. Since at the very least there can be ships with an all female bridge crew, like the Columbia NX-02 had. The concept of there being no female captains in the 23rd century just doesn’t make any sense.

If I were to do a re-edit of "The Cage", after Colt delivers the report to Pike and Number One says Colt's replacing his former Yeoman, I'd still have Pike say, "She does a good job, it's just that I can't--" and then I'd cut it off right there, as if he can't finish the sentence. Cut to Pike looking down. Number One turns around when he doesn't finish. She sees Pike still like that. Then she turns around again, knowing that he's still in a funk.

The way I'd cut it, it would imply that he's still not over the death of the Yeoman who died on Rigel VII. It would keep Pike's character arc with the episode intact, strengthen the drama to it, and also make the scene not be sexist.

If they were to ever remake "The Cage" with Anson Mount (I'm not saying they should, I'm just saying if they did}, I think this is how they should handle that scene.

I think if you were going to remake that particular scene, that’s the correct way to go.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

BTW, who else agrees with defining “inconsistent and contradictory” as “cannot possibly be rationalized in the spirit of the storyline” as opposed to “just feels like someone wasn’t paying attention”?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

BTW, who else agrees with defining “inconsistent and contradictory” as “cannot possibly be rationalized in the spirit of the storyline” as opposed to “just feels like someone wasn’t paying attention”?

Seems fair.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

I think the prevalence of humans in both Star Trek and Star Wars is a logistic result. It's not only easier and more time and cost-effective to have the majority of the main characters human, but I bet a good chunk of actors prefer roles that don't hide them behind layers of latex or heavy gci.
I for one find characters like Kira, Garak and Quark to be just as relatable, if not quite a bit more, than ST's human characters.

I'm sure that's a huge part of it.

But I also think they feel that viewers are more comfortable with a human-centric universe (at least from what we see of it). It's one thing that people loved Spock, Data etc. - the adorable outsiders (particularly when they confirm, in one way or another, that humans are just the specialest of special) -, but quite another to really see/ feel that humans are just one fish in a pond of many species of fish. In much the same way that, say, white straight men are overrepresented, humans are more than overrepresented. Or that most humans have English names. (Imagine most of them had Chinese and Indian names!) Because they underestimate (most of) their viewers.

Personally, I probably have identified with more non-humans than humans. As a kid, I liked Kirk, but loved Spock. I've identified on various levels, amongst others, with Bajorans, an android, a Betazoid, Trills, Ferengi (probably the biggest leap for me), a human/ Borg hybrid, Romulans, a Kelpian, a puddle of goo, and whatever Morn is!

 

[F. King Daniel]

Real life is inconsistent and contradictory. And I don't mean the Voyager episode.

 

[Forbin]

Let's not forget Capt Erika Hernandez on Enterprise. She'd be the first female captain, chronologically.

 

[FederationHistorian]

@Forbin Correct. And its unlikely that there weren't more of them like her, or that there weren't ships with a mostly female bridge crew afterwards.

I don’t really worry about it too much. It suggests growth in Pike’s character from “The Cage” to DSC. And its not like sexist attitudes are unique to him. Didn’t Worf dislike the formal uniforms he had to wear and thought they looked like dresses, resulting in Riker chiding him over it? And that was the 24th century?

 

[Mytran]

Of course, Pike also considered quitting and being involved in the Orion slave girls trade.

Not exactly - the captain was reeling off potential alternative careers and when Boyce pointed out that one of those involved the SLAVE TRADE Pike quickly confirmed that he was only spitballing ideas: He in no way endorsed the trade of the "green animal animal women" and was seen to be extremely disturbed when placed into that scenario later.

PIKE: I might go into business on Regulus or on the Orion colony.
BOYCE: You, an Orion trader, dealing in green animal women, slaves?
PIKE: The point is this isn't the only life available. There's a whole galaxy of things to choose from.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Not exactly - the captain was reeling off potential alternative careers and when Boyce pointed out that one of those involved the SLAVE TRADE Pike quickly confirmed that he was only spitballing ideas: He in no way endorsed the trade of the "green animal animal women" and was seen to be extremely disturbed when placed into that scenario later.

PIKE: I might go into business on Regulus or on the Orion colony.
BOYCE: You, an Orion trader, dealing in green animal women, slaves?
PIKE: The point is this isn't the only life available. There's a whole galaxy of things to choose from.

Considering what we learn about Orion slave women thanks to ENT, I wonder if Pike really thought that through.

An entire season on Pike could be based off of “The Cage” alone, comparing the Pike of then and his interactions with his crew to the Pike seen in DSC.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think when dealing with the women can’t be captains idea during the TOS era, it should be considered that Pike could not get used to a woman on the bridge during “The Cage”, despite Una being Number One and seeing her as different.

I guess he saw this officer as different too.

I see no reason to do backflips to make the line work or create a separate "universe". Just ignore the line and move on.