Spoilers Data's legacy: Picard S1 vs Cold Equations vs others

[Christopher]

I know you just like arguing for the sake of arguing, but I am allowed to have my own opinions. Stuart Baird was disliked by the cast and hasn't directed since.

This is not about Stuart Baird. It's about your casual insult of everyone who works for hire, the obnoxious implication that anyone who gets financial compensation for their creativity is not a true or worthy creator. You don't get to shame people for needing to make a living.

 

[Starbreaker]

Everybody who works in Hollywood gets paid. This was not a personal assault on you or your writing.

 

[Christopher]

Everybody who works in Hollywood gets paid. This was not a personal assault on you or your writing.

But it sounded like it because you made the poor choice of blaming "a team for hire" instead of Stuart Baird specifically. You went for a general attack instead of a specific criticism, and that was hurtful. If you step on someone's foot without meaning to, that doesn't mean you didn't actually do it. What matters is the effect of your words and actions, not your intent behind them. So if someone tells you that your words or actions caused harm, however inadvertently, you listen and apologize and try not to do it again.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That's the difference in a writing and directing team for hire and a team who has actually put effort into it.

Script developed by Brent Spiner and John Logan. No way was Brent phoning it in. His passion for getting Data just right is well known. Logan is a three-time Academy Award nominee; twice for Best Original Screenplay, "Gladiator" (2000) and "The Aviator" (2004) and once for Best Adapted Screenplay for "Hugo" (2011).

But yes, I found Stuart Baird's direction a disappointment, although a few scenes were effective. The early Data/Picard scene, to which Data's sacrifice was meant to be the counterpoint, was deliberately left on the cutting room floor. I miss it as much as the Spock tear for V'ger, which Robert Wise left out of the theatrical version of "The Motion Picture".

Ironic, perhaps, in that both Baird and Robert Wise (TMP) started out as editors.

 

[Christopher]

But yes, I found Stuart Baird's direction a disappointment, although a few scenes were effective. The early Data/Picard scene, to which Data's sacrifice was meant to be the counterpoint, was deliberately left on the cutting room floor.

I don't blame Baird for that as much as I blame the overall Hollywood blockbuster mentality that action (e.g. the totally gratuitous dune-buggy chase) must be prioritized and anything that "slows the pace" like a thoughtful dialogue scene must be ruthlessly excised. It's hardly unique to any one movie; it happens all the time.

And I don't understand why that is, why studios feel it's so fatal to slow the pace and risk losing the audience's interest for even a second. I mean they aren't TV viewers with their thumbs hovering over the channel-change button. They chose to commit themselves to driving to the theater and paying for a ticket. They've invested in the experience of seeing your movie. So why assume they'd casually walk out if you don't keep them hyperstimulated every second?

 

[Leto_II]

And I don't understand why that is, why studios feel it's so fatal to slow the pace and risk losing the audience's interest for even a second. I mean they aren't TV viewers with their thumbs hovering over the channel-change button. They chose to commit themselves to driving to the theater and paying for a ticket. They've invested in the experience of seeing your movie. So why assume they'd casually walk out if you don't keep them hyperstimulated every second?

This might not apply directly to Nemesis itself, but a huge reason for this phenomenon today is the need for easily-understood sequences due to the major studios now seeing a massive chunk of their box-office profits in foreign (read: non-English-speaking) markets such as China. Hence, an overemphasis on action and rapid-fire pacing over thoughtful dialogue and slowed-down character beats (which is why major "blockbusters" like the Avengers and the Fast & Furious franchises tend to do so well over there).

 

[Christopher]

Hence, an overemphasis on action and rapid-fire pacing over thoughtful dialogue and slowed-down character beats (which is why major "blockbusters" like the Avengers and the Fast & Furious franchises tend to do so well over there).

I think Avengers and the other MCU films do a great job balancing character beats with action. They prove one doesn't have to be a detriment to the other.

 

[Sci]

Honestly NEM's most fundamental flaw is the decision to try to ape The Wrath of Khan instead of finding its own compelling story. Shinzon could be a really fascinating character, but his motivation makes no sense -- he needs to harvest Picard's body for the Medical McGuffin that will allow him to live, okay, cool, fine, but... why does he want to attack Earth? Why does he hate the Federation? He's spent his entire life suffering at the hands of Romulan slavers and the Romulan military -- if anything, his big sinister plot should be to use thalaron radiation to destroy Romulus, not Earth. They're so busy trying to fit Shinzon into the Khan mode that they end up with an incoherent character whose motivations make no sense.

 

[F. King Daniel]

why does he want to attack Earth? Why does he hate the Federation? He's spent his entire life suffering at the hands of Romulan slavers and the Romulan military -- if anything, his big sinister plot should be to use thalaron radiation to destroy Romulus, not Earth. They're so busy trying to fit Shinzon into the Khan mode that they end up with an incoherent character whose motivations make no sense.

Shinzon was abused by Romulans and Remans his entire life. He's seriously damaged. I've seen real life instances where people who have been through hell have similarly targeted their hate at entirely the wrong people. I think in-universe, he wants Picard to suffer like he did (and very much wants to prove that Picard is no "better" than him), and then by extension all humans (who live comparatively perfect lives in paradise) to as well.

 

[David cgc]

I always took that there was an element of "killing is too good for them" when it came to Shinzon's opinion on the Romulans. He wanted to destroy Earth and devastate the Federation (over and beyond his resentments of Picard) for political reasons, to solidify his own power on Romulus and Remus, so he could then despotically torture the Romulan people at his leisure after he'd gotten a strong base of support among the elites for finally ridding them of those meddling Earthers. Then the elites would fall prey to the sunk-cost fallacy, and he could do anything to them, and they'd be so afraid of becoming Shinzon's enemy they'd never protest, no matter how awful his actions were.

 

[Christopher]

I think in-universe, he wants Picard to suffer like he did (and very much wants to prove that Picard is no "better" than him), and then by extension all humans (who live comparatively perfect lives in paradise) to as well.

Shinzon explained his motivations in the film: "My life is meaningless as long as you're still alive. What am I while you exist? A shadow? An echo? ...I'm afraid you won't survive to witness the victory of the echo over the voice." As I put it in my Star Trek Magazine article on this very subject in the December 2009 issue (p. 30):

His assault on Earth is the final act he must perform to gain total freedom. Before Shinzon can truly emerge as his own man, he must eradicate both Picard and his achievements, his legacy. Picard has earned greatness by saving Earth and the Federation; so Shinzon must outdo him by destroying them. “And my voice shall echo through time long after yours has faded to a dim memory.”

 

[Sci]

Shinzon was abused by Romulans and Remans his entire life. He's seriously damaged. I've seen real life instances where people who have been through hell have similarly targeted their hate at entirely the wrong people. I think in-universe, he wants Picard to suffer like he did (and very much wants to prove that Picard is no "better" than him), and then by extension all humans (who live comparatively perfect lives in paradise) to as well.

I think that's definitely what Tom Hardy was trying his damnedest to convey, but none of that makes any sort of intuitive sense.

Shinzon has absolute power over the people who tortured him his entire life, and the Federation has done literally nothing to him. However much people in real life might sometimes displace their anger onto other targets, it makes no sense that Shinzon would displace that anger when the people who hurt them are vulnerable to him.

And even if Shinzon were doing that -- why the hell would the rest of the Remans go along with it? He's not just a lone political actor; he's got a power base to maintain, and it's implausible that that power base would be willing to risk squandering their new position by attacking Earth when they have the opportunity to establish control over the Romulans.

I always took that there was an element of "killing is too good for them" when it came to Shinzon's opinion on the Romulans. He wanted to destroy Earth and devastate the Federation (over and beyond his resentments of Picard) for political reasons, to solidify his own power on Romulus and Remus, so he could then despotically torture the Romulan people at his leisure after he'd gotten a strong base of support among the elites for finally ridding them of those meddling Earthers. Then the elites would fall prey to the sunk-cost fallacy, and he could do anything to them, and they'd be so afraid of becoming Shinzon's enemy they'd never protest, no matter how awful his actions were.

It would be deeply naive of Shinzon to imagine that the Romulan elite would not be more than willing to rid themselves of him after he's destroyed Earth for them. Really, if he's serious about wanting to dominate the Romulan state, Shinzon's goal should be to murder as many members of the Romulan elite as possible and seize their wealth for his Reman followers and to pay off key leaders of the Romulan middle and working classes. He should also be working to exterminate every single member of the Tal Shiar, full stop.

 

[David cgc]

It would be deeply naive of Shinzon to imagine that the Romulan elite would not be more than willing to rid themselves of him after he's destroyed Earth for them. Really, if he's serious about wanting to dominate the Romulan state, Shinzon's goal should be to murder as many members of the Romulan elite as possible and seize their wealth for his Reman followers and to pay off key leaders of the Romulan middle and working classes. He should also be working to exterminate every single member of the Tal Shiar, full stop.

So the Deep State is going to remove an egomaniacal and self-destructive ruler whose true believers are peppered throughout the government, military, and labor class, and his political confederates are going to stand against him despite him giving them what they've always wanted (the central decoration in their own seat of power is the Federation Neutral Zone! They're obsessed with Earth!) because he's screwing over the little people and their own political opponents? Shinzon's mercurial rages and lack of loyalty will actually prove to warn away those who support him, and not inspire them to cleave ever-closer, because they think they can control whether or not he turns on them, avoiding even the temporary loss of their own standing that could come with Shinzon's fall?

One envies the Romulans, in that case.