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Let's be honest about the Federation's failings

Considering how prejudiced humans are, the only way I can see humanity getting passed its isms regarding sexuality, gendar, race, religion etc is coming across a group of advanced aliens that show us how insignificant humans are compared to everyone else

I dunno, I think that's a positive message because the aliens in Star Trek are humans.
Multiculturalism and accepting help as well as giving help are the reasons humanity got better rather than just, "we fixed ourselves."

Ironically, a lot of this makes sense, I'll admit. It'll probably take contact from advanced aliens to shock humans out of being racist, sexist, narrow minded bigots. Once you realize there's intelligent life on other planets, human prejudices are going to be small and insignificant. In other words humans have to be shocked out their "isms".

The big let down is, outside the Star Trek universe, this is very, very unlikely to happen in real life. I mean, warp drive itself is a hug enough difficulty, but then hoping to contact aliens so the discovery can push humans into accepting diversity and differences, just pushes the whole thing back into the area of science fiction and fantasy.

I think that's the irony Trek never thought about, after First Contact.

The P.D. is incredibly inconsistently applied and many things Janeway and others did would be certain violations in other interpretations.

One of the most dangerous interpretations of the PD that I've ever seen comes from Pens Pals. They're having a discussion about saving an intelligent, but pre-warp civilization. It has the outward appearance of an intelligent discussion, but then it goes in a strange direction.

They're talking about things "cosmic plan" and "fate" and destiny. And whether the civilization was meant to be destroyed, and hence they shouldn't save it. Worf even said the PD "was an absolute" not a matter of degrees or context.

I get what some of what they were trying to say, but it's easier when you're living in a comfortable star ship.
 
One of the most dangerous interpretations of the PD that I've ever seen comes from Pens Pals. They're having a discussion about saving an intelligent, but pre-warp civilization. It has the outward appearance of an intelligent discussion, but then it goes in a strange direction.

They're talking about things "cosmic plan" and "fate" and destiny. And whether the civilization was meant to be destroyed, and hence they shouldn't save it. Worf even said the PD "was an absolute" not a matter of degrees or context.

I get what some of what they were trying to say, but it's easier when you're living in a comfortable star ship.
Indeed, this naturalistic fallacy irks me, and "having developed a method of f.t.l.-travel" strikes me as a most arbitrary threshold.

On The Orville, they had a somewhat more sensible approach — their rules were that they were forbidden from making contact with any civilization that did not requæst it, but if a civilization sent into the cosmos the quæstion "is there anyone out there?" much like S.E.T.I. is doing, then they were at liberty to answer and establish contact.

But yet again, we thread upon the idea of what constitutes "a civilization". If but one member of a civilization asks that, is that enough for that one member to decide the fate of all the others and "contaminate" them? is there a requirement that they have some form of democratic government, that at least the decision be made in a manner that ensures the majority of the civilization wishes it so? All these quæstions were never raised, nor answered, probably because merely raising them would highlight the problems with these rules.
 
Any civilization they pass by without dropping off replicator tech is dooming it's people to starve

Any civilization they pass without equipping with advanced weaponry is defenseless to whatever other space faring race stumbles on them first
 
Indeed, this naturalistic fallacy irks me, and "having developed a method of f.t.l.-travel" strikes me as a most arbitrary threshold.

A civilization that sends intelligent, specific messages out into space asking if anyone's out there,or for help, but does not yet have warp, - is still considered off limits, or hands off and is ignored by Starfleet.

It seems like what happens when an interpretation of idea gets out of control, is taken to an extreme level.

In First Contact (the episode) Picard actually beamed down and revealed himself to a government official, but simply because the culture was on the verge of launching a warp capable ship. And yet a look at that culture suggests that culture still had issues with paranoia, xenophobia, cultural limitations, ect-- and it still didn't seem to bother Picard to do that. It seemed like the main criteria was that they possessed warp capability.

By the way, Janeway was another good example. She got angry and a little insulted when they encounter a culture that has a device that could possibly send them all home in an instant. The spokesman told her their laws preventing them from sharing it because outsiders could use it for wrong purposes.

Janeway pleaded, made promises, tried to bargain, everything, but he refused. When she returned to the ship, she was angry and emotional.

She admitted she knew what it felt like to be on the other side.
 
Any civilization they pass by without dropping off replicator tech is dooming it's people to starve

Any civilization they pass without equipping with advanced weaponry is defenseless to whatever other space faring race stumbles on them first

Whoever you drop replicator tech on will rule over those without.

Indeed, this naturalistic fallacy irks me, and "having developed a method of f.t.l.-travel" strikes me as a most arbitrary threshold.

Weirdly, I always objected to the Prime Directive being a MORAL imperative rather than a practical imperative.

It works better because a civilization with warp travel is everyone's problem if they're a bunch of orcs or, worse, humans. Otherwise, you can make individual decisions to visit a cultural or not.
 
A civilization that sends intelligent, specific messages out into space asking if anyone's out there,or for help, but does not yet have warp, - is still considered off limits, or hands off and is ignored by Starfleet.
Only when the plot be so suited of course; Janeway was more than willing to aid the Ocampans, a civilization bereft of f.t.l. travel, in their plight against the evil, evil Kazon, who to make it even easier for the audience to see them as a villain in dire need of spanking were all not quite as pretty Ocampans were.

And here again, the vague definition of "civilization" comes at play. If the Caretaker be ruled part of "the Ocampan civilization" then they suddenly have such capabilities.

In First Contact (the episode) Picard actually beamed down and revealed himself to a government official, but simply because the culture was on the verge of launching a warp capable ship. And yet a look at that culture suggests that culture still had issues with paranoia, xenophobia, cultural limitations, ect-- and it still didn't seem to bother Picard to do that. It seemed like the main criteria was that they possessed warp capability.

By the way, Janeway was another good example. She got angry and a little insulted when they encounter a culture that has a device that could possibly send them all home in an instant. The spokesman told her their laws preventing them from sharing it because outsiders could use it for wrong purposes.

Janeway pleaded, made promises, tried to bargain, everything, but he refused. When she returned to the ship, she was angry and emotional.

She admitted she knew what it felt like to be on the other side.
Not at all a decision sans wisdom in the slightest. In StarGate the Asgard did eventually gift all of their technology to the humans, nay to the U.S.A air force — I would personally surmise that a quick glance into human history teaches one how one human civilization is very swift to conquer and enslave another, if the former have only a slight technological advantage over the other that allows it to do so. If a man is such a wolf to his fellow man, I can hardly imagine what he would do with all the other species in the cosmos, empowered by the advanced Asgardian technology that can bring many to it's knees.

I do not share Thor's optimism of the boundless good of the U.S.A. air force, at all.
 
Indeed, this naturalistic fallacy irks me, and "having developed a method of f.t.l.-travel" strikes me as a most arbitrary threshold.

I wouldn't say it's arbitrary. The aliens developing interstellar travel is as late as you can put it off. After that, either you go to them or they come to you.
 
I wouldn't say it's arbitrary. The aliens developing interstellar travel is as late as you can put it off. After that, either you go to them or they come to you.
Mere faster than light travel is hardly the same as feasible interstellar travel, which is why it's an arbitrary threshold. Being able to travel at 99.9% of the speed of light, opposed to 100.1%, is not a dramatic difference that makes interstellar travel feasible.
 
Let's look back:
RIKER: Yes. If you believe those accusations, then you certainly should act on them.
LETEK: And there is even more. We can prove that the humans are destroyers of legal commerce, and that they selfishly withhold vital technology from backward worlds.
MORDOC: And necessary defensive weapons, too. We Ferengi now challenge this human madness.
RIKER: I admit we withheld modern technology from some worlds.
KAYRON: You see? They are demented. Their values are insane. You cannot believe the business opportunities they have destroyed.
LETEK: Proof of their barbarism. They adorn themselves with gold, a despicable use of a valuable metal. And they shamelessly clothe their females.
MORDOC: Inviting others to unclothe them. The very depth of perversion.
TASHA: Paws off, Ferengi.
MORDOC: No female, human or Ferengi, can order Mordoc around! Submit!
TASHA: Just try it, shorty.
RIKER: At ease, Lieutenant!
RIKER: And we still have more faults
DATA: They should add that Starfleet has permitted several civilisations to fall. We have at times allowed the strong and violent to overcome the weak.
The Federation could always do bad things, they cloth women after all.

Since I can't stand anything Berman related, I choose to believe that instead of "Humanity is Special" ala Enterprise, that the Vulcans solved 90% of our problems and fixed our environment too.

Humans like Archer just pretend they did it on their own.
I always took it in a practical matter, that finding aliens united humans like an outside threat, without being an actual threat based situation. The Vulcans give us aid and guidance to recover quickly, and we do it even faster than the Vulcans expect. I ilke to think humanity saw so much out there and the only way to get there is through unity, so that's what was done.
I'm getting two versions of this according to the dialog. One is that 14 Federation members threatened to leave the UFP if they helped the Romulans, even before the Mars attack. Which meant the Federation were already thinking of not helping them.

Plus if those 14 members left, the Federation would have "imploded" which sounded pretty serious. As in the Federation collapsing from within.

The other is that after the Mars attack, the Federation had to pull its resources to deal with the Mars situation, and not help the Romulans. They didn't have enough resources to help although they seemed like they were about to. But then it changed to "let's look out for ourselves first".

So, the dirty reality of maintaining Paradise is revealed. The story got so caught up in the Synth stuff, we forgot all about this issue. Suggesting the Federation is not what it once was or should be (according to Picard).

Wait, something doesn't make sense. The Tal Shair or it's subgroup (Romulans) orchestrated the Synth attack which resulted in the Fed abandoning the aid effort, which resulted in nearly a billion Romulan deaths.

Because they were afraid the Synths would bring about the end of everything?
I think we have to assume there were already objections to helping the Romulans from the start, and that losing the fleet made those voices even stronger, because the only alternative to the rescue fleet would be to use Starfleet's normal vessels. That would have stripped Federation defenses

That's what I wanted stated outright not the crewing issue, not the mothball fleet, but the use of existing ships and personnel would require reducing defenses to dangerous levels.

The bigger issue is it is never clear whether Starfleet decided on its own, or whether the Federation council made an order which Starfleet command followed.
I think even in Berman's writing that Archer was just really racist.

If Earth did not have that stupid anti genetic tampering policy, his father would lived long enough to see his project through. I never saw the logic in Earth being a de facto colony of Vulcan for 100 years unless during those years Vulcan was a military dictatorship or something.
I think he was racist too. It makes it better when he drops his general hatred of the Vulcans, having realized none of it was personal, the Vulcans aren't monolithic, and even the Vulcans were getting screwed with by their own government. T'Pol and others humanized the Vulcans for him enough that he finally saw them as just more people.

Either way, I think it's pretty clear that Vulcan was engaging in some neo-colonialism vis-a-vis its relationships with client states like Earth and Coridan. And there's plenty of logic in neo-colonialism -- the wealth of the client states gets sent back to the hegmon, but the hegmon doesn't have to undertake the costs of actual annexation and can just outsource the job of direct governance to local elites.
I think it i less colonialism than keeping other species in line, since trade seems pretty minimal in that period. Vulcans were slowing humans down probably in equal parts because they thought humanity would wipe itself out with some crazy experiment, and Vulcan along with them. They state outright that humans did in a 100 years what it took Vulcans 1800 years.
Indeed, this naturalistic fallacy irks me, and "having developed a method of f.t.l.-travel" strikes me as a most arbitrary threshold.

On The Orville, they had a somewhat more sensible approach — their rules were that they were forbidden from making contact with any civilization that did not requæst it, but if a civilization sent into the cosmos the quæstion "is there anyone out there?" much like S.E.T.I. is doing, then they were at liberty to answer and establish contact.

But yet again, we thread upon the idea of what constitutes "a civilization". If but one member of a civilization asks that, is that enough for that one member to decide the fate of all the others and "contaminate" them? is there a requirement that they have some form of democratic government, that at least the decision be made in a manner that ensures the majority of the civilization wishes it so? All these quæstions were never raised, nor answered, probably because merely raising them would highlight the problems with these rules.
I think the Prime Directive's issue is when it is taken to the level of dogma of not getting involved, rather than seeing it in terms of helping vulnerable societies and in practical terms of future involvement and historical examples. At its worse it is an excuse not to help people, but at its best it instructs the Federation not to dictate terms to newcomers.
 
One of the most dangerous interpretations of the PD that I've ever seen comes from Pens Pals. They're having a discussion about saving an intelligent, but pre-warp civilization. It has the outward appearance of an intelligent discussion, but then it goes in a strange direction.

They're talking about things "cosmic plan" and "fate" and destiny. And whether the civilization was meant to be destroyed, and hence they shouldn't save it. Worf even said the PD "was an absolute" not a matter of degrees or context.

Thank you. Picard must have been thinking "WOW this went off the rails quick. Do you people really think that way??"

This isnt warp physics people. Here's the list of things you dont stop:

Despots
Wars (even nuclear ones)
Pandemics

Here's the things you do stop:

Planet or utterly 100% civilization destroying events. A pandemic doesn't qualify because a native might discover their own cure. A nuclear war isn't 100% guaranteed to destroy the civilization.

But hey....you want to make a nuclear war also a threshhold for First Contact...I wont stop you. I would argue its better than letting them die. Maybe a 80% death rate pandemic. You want to invent a Section 32 who are inserted to stop those kind of events and understand they are not going to be rescued like Riker was in the ep "First Contact", go ahead.

But I swear the first person who says "WhATT ifFF sum1 Grows Up to Beee Hitler???" gets thrown out an airlock.
 
Thank you. Picard must have been thinking "WOW this went off the rails quick. Do you people really think that way??".

I'm sure if a huge, unstoppable asteroid was heading towards earth, and there was some aliens with the technology to stop it, Picard's crew wouldn't want to hear the aliens discussing whether earth was meant to be destroyed because of some sort of cosmic plan. I thought most of those characters were basically atheists anyway? Where did all that come from?

I get that you can't render aid every single time some thing happens to every alien culture that need help. But when Worf said the PD is an absolute..................

It gets even worse on Enterprise. The one were Phlox said that although they could easily cure a deadly disease on an alien planet, they shouldn't, because since it was a genetic based disease, it was meant to happen by evolution. The side afflicted by the disease were meant to die out, and the unaffiliated side was meant to evolve and thrive.

The bigger issue is it is never clear whether Starfleet decided on its own, or whether the Federation council made an order which Starfleet command followed.

Which brings up questions about what type of government is the Federation based on. It seems like Starfleet does a lot of things on its own, even though its theoretically supposed to be a miltary? / exploration/ humanitarian service. A lot of times characters talk as if "Federation" and Starfleet" are interchangeable.
 
Which brings up questions about what type of government is the Federation based on. It seems like Starfleet does a lot of things on its own, even though its theoretically supposed to be a miltary? / exploration/ humanitarian service. A lot of times characters talk as if "Federation" and Starfleet" are interchangeable.
Especially in PIC, which makes it no easier. At this point my interpretation is Starfleet is some sort of semi-independent political entity within the Federation which is economically self sustaining, has no formal citizens, no territory, and no vote in the Federation council but is subject to the Federation president.

As for the Federation I think it might lack any sort of strict membership requirements beyond mind your own business and don’t make trouble.
 
Mere faster than light travel is hardly the same as feasible interstellar travel, which is why it's an arbitrary threshold. Being able to travel at 99.9% of the speed of light, opposed to 100.1%, is not a dramatic difference that makes interstellar travel feasible.

But there's no evidence that unfeasible interstellar FTL travel exists in the Trek universe. Warp 1 isn't just 1% faster than any speed you can reach with normal physics, it's 1% faster with no acceleration time and trivial fuel requirements.
 
But there's no evidence that unfeasible interstellar FTL travel exists in the Trek universe. Warp 1 isn't just 1% faster than any speed you can reach with normal physics, it's 1% faster with no acceleration time and trivial fuel requirements.
In canon, Earth first achieved warp technology in 2063, and only achieved feasible interstellar travel in 2051, nigh a century later, with the Warp Five engines — Soval claimed that it took Vulcan more than twice as long to cross the barrier from inventing warp to interstellar travel.

Merely having a warp engine or some other means of f.t.l. is clearly very different from the means of interstellar travel.
 
In canon, Earth first achieved warp technology in 2063, and only achieved feasible interstellar travel in 2051, nigh a century later, with the Warp Five engines — Soval claimed that it took Vulcan more than twice as long to cross the barrier from inventing warp to interstellar travel.

Merely having a warp engine or some other means of f.t.l. is clearly very different from the means of interstellar travel.
I think you meant 2151 rather than 2051. Are you allowed to edit your posts yet?
 
Considering how prejudiced humans are, the only way I can see humanity getting passed its isms regarding sexuality, gendar, race, religion etc is coming across a group of advanced aliens that show us how insignificant humans are compared to everyone else. Present day Humans, under a United Earth, having the advanced technology of Star Trek would create a mirror style universe if there was no First Contact, with humans as the underdogs. Just consider how advanced we are now compared to our ancestors of 300 years ago, and still we are as territorial as ever.
I think it likely humans would get past the -isms only as long as they had some aliens to displace their anger and prejudices on.
 
I'm sure if a huge, unstoppable asteroid was heading towards earth, and there was some aliens with the technology to stop it, Picard's crew wouldn't want to hear the aliens discussing whether earth was meant to be destroyed because of some sort of cosmic plan. I thought most of those characters were basically atheists anyway? Where did all that come from?

There's a significantly large section of scientists who believe that humans should be humbled before natural laws. This is a persistent theme in Star Trek and always-always stupid.
 
I’m more of the inclination that the non-interference principle is a little too close to mysticism. (Ditto free will and the invisible hand of the market, but those are threads.) But devil’s advocate, where should/would the Federation or any power interfere?
 
Which brings up questions about what type of government is the Federation based on. It seems like Starfleet does a lot of things on its own, even though its theoretically supposed to be a miltary? / exploration/ humanitarian service. A lot of times characters talk as if "Federation" and Starfleet" are interchangeable.
In practise is a semi military dictatorship masquarading as a democracy, or its just poor writing that Starfleet and the UFP are interchangeable.
 
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