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Spoilers Data's legacy: Picard S1 vs Cold Equations vs others

Markonian said:
In these, the B4 matrix sacrificed himself to force the Data matrix into accepting B4's body and step for the Federation in a time of need.
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I thought I'd read that B-4's matrix was downloaded into some other system and thus survived, freeing Data to use his body without the ethical problems.


Markonian said:
I loved the little tidbit that Spock pointed out to Captain Data that they both had returned from the dead, in a fashion. Given that they are both the breakout characters of their respective shows, it's symmetry is fitting.
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I think you could make the case that Worf is a bigger breakout character than Data. Generally "breakout character" implies one whose popularity is unplanned and greater than expected, and that's more true of Worf. He wasn't even part of the original proposal, was added as an afterthought, but became a central member of the ensemble and literally "broke out" by being spun off to another show after TNG ended. Data was certainly popular, but he was always expected to be a central player, the inheritor of Spock's role as the outsider commenting on human nature.

For that matter, you could say Picard was a breakout character in a way. While he was always the lead character, it was assumed he'd take a back seat to Riker as the action and romantic lead, and it ended up being more or less the other way around. And nobody had any idea just how popular Patrick Stewart would become in America, going far beyond TNG.
 
Christopher said:
I thought I'd read that B-4's matrix was downloaded into some other system and thus survived, freeing Data to use his body without the ethical problems.
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Direct quote: "
In retrospect, it makes perfect sense, doesn’t it? B-4 had Data’s complete service record at his disposal, so he knew what kind of man his brother was. He knew all about Data’s sacrifice at the Bassen Rift. Then, suddenly, he was face-to-face with his brother, cybernetically speaking; he could sense Data’s anguish, along with the hope and disappointment and grief of the entire research team. Even if he didn’t completely understand the emotions involved, he knew he had to do something to help resolve them. B-4 knew that his brother didn’t want to die again. But he saw that Data was willing to do it anyway rather than take responsibility for causing another being’s death. So he resolved the problem by relieving his brother of that responsibility. B-4 came up with the one solution that only he could supply. I suppose that makes this story less about Data’s return from the dead and more about B-4’s sacrifice. Of the two brothers, Data was destined to be the one who would go on to deal directly with the Undine in ways that no one else could. But that wouldn’t have been possible without B-4’s sacrifice."
- Martin, Michael A.. Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many . Pocket Books/Star Trek. Kindle Edition.
The book specifically mentions the "suicide subroutine" B-4 used. La Forge had a holographic copy of B-4's contents and was looking to unlock the "B-4 matrix". (In STO, nothing further came of that).


And for the second point, I concede my misapplication of the term breakout character.
 
Markonian said:
The book specifically mentions the "suicide subroutine" B-4 used. La Forge had a holographic copy of B-4's contents and was looking to unlock the "B-4 matrix". (In STO, nothing further came of that).
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I wasn't talking about the book, I was talking about the actual game. I had the impression that the game's version differed from the book's. Perhaps I misunderstood the reference to the holographic copy.
 
Markonian said:
Now, in PIC, Data seemingly remains dead after NEM except for his matrix to reappear in the season finale, but being promptly shut off. A point is made that he doesn't want to live forever, itself tracing back to a TNG episode. This is where I bang my head, metaphorically. Yes, I can understand he wouldn't want to keeping making friends and outliving them, but come on! How can he sick of live after less than 100 years? I could see him getting sick of personal loss after maybe 300 years but he has/had so much potential to expand, like the Doctor did in Myriad Universes: "Places of Exile". He could start replacing his cybernetic components with organic parts, like Bicentennial Man. But nope, let's make a point that mortality is part of being Human and die young. :thumbdown:
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It's not that he's sick of life. It's that what he was doing at that point was not living - he was a consciousness in a computer, not truly alive. Data's consciousness had been rebuilt from a neuron, but in the end, he was, in his way, malingering in the way that Picard claimed to have been doing after he resigned. Because his existence was just the computer system, the world created by the simulation, that was not LIVING.

And you could argue that he could be downloaded into another body, but then you get the logistical elements of building a body, and then you come back to the concept of Data becoming immortal, which he definitely was against. Even with PIcard being given the golem body, they make a pointed effort to indicate that this is Picard extending his life (again, like a heart transplant for an elderly person), rather than pushing that expiration date off to "Stardate ??????" Rather than getting himself into that loop, because he'd already had his life continued beyond his "death," that it had been twenty years since that had happened, rather than a relatively quick resuscitation like Picard (going back to the medical metaphor to compare the two, in this case it's the difference of reviving someone on the operating table and a long-term coma patient).

Data had died. His existence had ended. So the decision made by what remained of Data's consciousness, after continuing in a limbo state for a good twenty years, was that he wanted the plug pulled. His decision may have been different had he been asked at a prior point, say twenty days, twenty weeks after his initial death. But he'd gone on in a non-living life for twenty years and wanted finality. There were only wait more time for a new shell to be constructed (because he'd certainly not take over any of the other android bodies on Coppelius, and the only blank that we know of was given to Picard) or turn off the life support, and between the two, he decides to accept his ending.
 
King Daniel Beyond said:
I think there was another Data/B-4 Star Trek Online short story published in the official Star Trek magazine that differed from the Need of the Many version?
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It could be "Honor", where Data of the Enterprise-E passes the baton to Va'Kel Shon of the newly minted Enterprise-F, but I haven't read it. The mag short stories are kinda hard to track down. :alienblush:
 
Add me to those who prefer how the "Novelverse" handled data. I reread Cold Equations and The Light Fantastic last summer and it showed an interesting way to continue Data's story while acknowledging his death and not rehashing his past life. I'd love to see one more novel continuing that story as unlikely as it may be.
 
You know, I'm a bit odd -- I don't actually like or agree with the idea of Data being resurrected. So on that level, I preferred PIC's take: Data does not come back.

On the other hand, I find that even though I disagree with the idea of bringing Data back, I prefer the execution of how Cold Equations brought him back over the execution of how PIC revealed Data would never be coming back (though I really did love PIC, too).

I guess it just goes to show you that sometimes it's not what the story is about, it's how the story is about it.
 
Christopher said:
I thought I'd read that B-4's matrix was downloaded into some other system and thus survived, freeing Data to use his body without the ethical problems.
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In a short story in "Star Trek" magazine.

"In 2409, Data entered a highly secure room where he activated a positronic circuit on an identical android he called 'brother'." (STO short story: "Unexpected Honor") [Memory Beta]

King Daniel Beyond said:
I think there was another Data/B-4 Star Trek Online short story published in the official Star Trek magazine that differed from the Need of the Many version?
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Correct.
 
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I´m not sure if we are to understand Data in Picard as real "resurrection". He talks about it beeing an "advanced quantum simulation"...which sounds like an evolved form of the holodeck. So for me he´s more like something halfway between a holodeck character and a real resurrection
 
FreddyE said:
I´m not sure if we are to understand Data in Picard as real "resurrection". He talks about it beeing an "advanced quantum simulation"...which sounds like an evolved form of the holodeck. So for me he´s more like something halfway between a holodeck character and a real resurrection
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I think he was saying the "room" they occupied was the simulation, not necessarily that he was.
 
Data was a single original positronic neuron coupled with the memory download to B4 from Nemesis, if I recall correctly. So a copy, but good enough for Picard to get his closure.
 
King Daniel Beyond said:
Data was a single original positronic neuron coupled with the memory download to B4 from Nemesis, if I recall correctly. So a copy, but good enough for Picard to get his closure.
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Heck, Spock was a copy after Genesis and the fal tor pan. He copied his mind into McCoy's brain (and it must've been a copy since he was still conscious and functional after the meld), and then that copy was transferred into his Genesis-cloned body, which could be considered a second-generation copy, even more distant than this one.

I've never really thought of post-Genesis Spock as the same individual as pre-Genesis Spock. He's more of a duplicate who retains some portion of the original's memories but evidently had to relearn a lot of things from scratch.
 
Markonian said:
Direct quote: "
In retrospect, it makes perfect sense, doesn’t it? B-4 had Data’s complete service record at his disposal, so he knew what kind of man his brother was. He knew all about Data’s sacrifice at the Bassen Rift. Then, suddenly, he was face-to-face with his brother, cybernetically speaking; he could sense Data’s anguish, along with the hope and disappointment and grief of the entire research team. Even if he didn’t completely understand the emotions involved, he knew he had to do something to help resolve them. B-4 knew that his brother didn’t want to die again. But he saw that Data was willing to do it anyway rather than take responsibility for causing another being’s death. So he resolved the problem by relieving his brother of that responsibility. B-4 came up with the one solution that only he could supply. I suppose that makes this story less about Data’s return from the dead and more about B-4’s sacrifice. Of the two brothers, Data was destined to be the one who would go on to deal directly with the Undine in ways that no one else could. But that wouldn’t have been possible without B-4’s sacrifice."
- Martin, Michael A.. Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many . Pocket Books/Star Trek. Kindle Edition.
The book specifically mentions the "suicide subroutine" B-4 used. La Forge had a holographic copy of B-4's contents and was looking to unlock the "B-4 matrix". (In STO, nothing further came of that).


And for the second point, I concede my misapplication of the term breakout character.
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It's hard to take the poorly written words from MAM as a discussion point. Please don't take this as an attack on you for quoting, it's just a petty swipe at a writer who should never write.... Because it's all bad....
 
Therin of Andor said:
Data was my favourite Trek character. I should have been moved to tears in "Nemesis". Something was sorely missing. The director missed a huge opportunity.

"Picard" did it exactly right. Those concluding scenes were wonderful! So grateful.
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That's the difference in a writing and directing team for hire and a team who has actually put effort into it.
 
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Starbreaker said:
That's the difference in a writing and directing team for hire and a team who has actually out effort into it.
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That statement makes no sense. This isn't a hobby -- everyone who makes movies and TV shows is doing it for hire. They get hired to do it, signed to contracts, and paid for their work. That has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not they put effort into the work they're hired to do. Indeed, people who don't put effort into their work don't get hired very often, so your statement is a false dichotomy.
 
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