• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Where did the Vulcans come from?

Vulcans and their counterparts (Mintakans, Romulans, Rigellans to name three off the top of my head) are all descended from an ancient stellar Empire whose Empire was decimated by the intelligence, that almost summoned in the finale, a small fleet escaped and settled various planets, destroying a lot of their machinery and technology, living a more simple life. Whether they developed the machine intelligence or not, seems a moot point when it comes to this mysterious power who we still don't know the motivations of.
 
Vulcans and their counterparts (Mintakans, Romulans, Rigellans to name three off the top of my head) are all descended from an ancient stellar Empire whose Empire was decimated by the intelligence, that almost summoned in the finale, a small fleet escaped and settled various planets, destroying a lot of their machinery and technology, living a more simple life. Whether they developed the machine intelligence or not, seems a moot point when it comes to this mysterious power who we still don't know the motivations of.

I think you’re confusing Star Trek with nuBSG.
 
My view is Vulcans evolved in the 40 Eridani system. I do not trust any Romulan governmental "facts" or hand me down information long after the Sundering.
 
So they destroy all the AI's after a bitter war, but they discover a planet, a desert planet, with giant worms, and they find this thing called Spice, and use it to expand the mind and body.. THE SPICE MUST FLOW!!
 
Why hasn't anyone asked Chabon yet? Seems to me that would be far more productive than speculation. :shrug:

Because people don’t like to admit when they screwed up and will instead make it sound like they knew what they were doing when they really didn’t? ;)
 
Because he’s not taking questions any longer. Plus, I think @Phily B has it. So say we all.

I think it’s either Chabon was thinking Sargon or, like the Ready Room/Observation Lounge flub, it was an oversight.
 
As others have said, it is perfectly possible that Vulcans and their offshoots are themselves offshoots of some ancient Vulcanoids diaspora. Perhaps they were Sargon's people, perhaps not.
 
Yep. Things like this either mean that the people whose job it is to catch this stuff weren’t doing their job, or production was rushed. Or both.

I really don't get this. Why should we think there is a mistake of any sort involved?

So the writers gave us something that surprises us. Isn't the automatic assumption there that we are in the wrong, not them? It's not us writing this stuff, it's them. And unlike some sets of writers, the current ones love to browse Memory Alpha or their own fond fandom memories for obscure bits of Trek trivia that they can then insert into PIC. This is by overwhelming probability one of those...

It doesn't mean the writers had a Great Plan we must now uncover. They just dug up the specific piece of trivia that says Vulcans are not native to Vulcan, and put it in there, just because it sounded fun. It's neither right or wrong, it just is.

(Which retroactively makes it right in-universe. I mean, if there were actually something wrong with it, we might have an argument. But there isn't.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
I really don't get this. Why should we think there is a mistake of any sort involved?

Because the writers aren’t perfect and can make mistakes. Or the actors aren’t perfect and can flub their lines, and the directors accidentally kept it in, because they’re not perfect either.
 
That makes no sense. Are you next going to say that Riker flubbed his line about having lost a son, and in fact another daughter of his died? Or that in fact Dahj lived in Babylon, and "Boston" is a misspelling?

Arbitrarily claiming that something the writers wrote is a mistake, because mistakes is what they do for a living... I just don't get it.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Narek says the tale of end is from a time before their ancestors came to Vulcan....! Where did the Vulcans come from before Vulcan?

stumbled over that line as well

it's a conspiracy!

That may have just been a line flub that wasn't caught -- maybe he meant to say before they left Vulcan, or before they came to Romulus. Alternatively, maybe Narek is misinformed about Vulcan history. Maybe he buys into Romulan propaganda that they came first, or something. Just because a character says something doesn't require it to be absolute gospel -- especially when he's a liar in his own right and is a member of both a fanatical cult and an authoritarian government. Narek is anything but a reliable witness.

"Return to Tomorrow" did imply that Sargon's people might have seeded Vulcan when they settled space 500-600,000 years ago. But that's so far in prehistory that there's no way it would be remembered, or that a group like the Zhat Vash could've been in continuous existence. That doesn't fit with anything we know about the Vulcans' history.




No, they couldn't, any more than cavemen rode around on dinosaurs. They all date from totally different eras, and they did totally different things:

The First Humanoids from "The Chase" lived 4 billion years ago, before even single-celled life had evolved on Earth. They seeded the primordial soup of uninhabited worlds with DNA programmed to nudge their evolution toward the eventual production of more-or-less humanoid forms -- accounting for the existence of all humanoid aliens, even the more exotic ones.

Sargon's people, aka the Arretians, lived 5-600,000 years ago, or about 0.00015 times as long ago as the First Humanoids. Rather than seeding worlds with DNA, they directly colonized them with their own population, and may have been the ancestors of strongly humanoid species like Vulcans, and perhaps others like Deltans, Bajorans, Trill, Ocampa, etc.

As for the Preservers, their one known act could not possibly have happened more than about 4-500 years ago our time, or about 0.0008 times as long ago as Sargon's people or 0.0000001 times as long ago as the First Humanoids. After all, they rescued several endangered populations of Native Americans from different parts of North America (Spock said Delaware, Mohican, and Navajo, the third of which didn't emerge as a distinct group until the 1400s or so), which would not all have been simultaneously endangered until the era of European colonization. And all they did was relocate pre-existing populations to supposedly "safer" worlds (although the fact that they "preserved" the Native Americans by sticking them in the middle of an asteroid field with only one deflector unit makes them seem pretty incompetent). They were only meant to justify Earth-parallel cultures in particular (although most of the Earth-parallel cultures in TOS were given different explanations).

Personally, I suspect the Preservers are the same people as the Vians from "The Empath," since they had the exact same agenda. I'm surprised nobody else ever sees the similarity. It's because they're hung up on this false idea that the Preservers are some immeasurably ancient, long-lost civilization rather than just a few centuries old.

I think it was definitely intentional in the way it was framed, as a part of worldbuilding:

Both sides think they are living on the "original" planet, and the other ones left (though judging by ENT season 4, the Vulcans are right, and the Romulans propaganda).

Also fixes a bit of a plot hole of ST09, where Nero had no qualms about destroying Vulcan. That makes more sense if Romulans don't believe Vulcan is their homeworld as well.


Most likely.

Although I'm actually loving the idea that "our ancestors arrived on Vulcan" is Romulan propaganda, intended to propagate the myth that it was the Vulcans who left Romulus, not the other way around as in reality.

I totally buy the idea that the Romulan government would spin it that way. It paints the Vulcans as disloyal cowards who left the Motherland. Definitely within the Romulans' wheelhouse.

Exactly!
 
That makes no sense. Are you next going to say that Riker flubbed his line about having lost a son, and in fact another daughter of his died? Or that in fact Dahj lived in Babylon, and "Boston" is a misspelling?

Arbitrarily claiming that something the writers wrote is a mistake, because mistakes is what they do for a living... I just don't get it.

Except I didn’t say ‘mistakes is what they do for a living.’ I feel that particular line was a mistake because it doesn’t fit the context of the show. YMMV.
 
I don’t know that I like the interpretation that it’s Romulan propaganda. For one, I like them forever having a chip on their shoulder about being banished from their rightful home. From Eden?)

But also, wouldn’t Narek want to point out how old the story of the ancients is? That it happened even before their people ever arrived on their earliest homeworld.

Now, it happened about 2-300,000 years ago, right? Humans have been evolving on Earth around that time, so the purge isn’t of all organic life, just intelligent life. That would allow for the term “arrival” to mean when their earliest Vulcanoid ancestors “arose” on Vulcan.

(or, again, we’re deposited on it?)
 
I think it was definitely intentional in the way it was framed, as a part of worldbuilding:

Both sides think they are living on the "original" planet, and the other ones left (though judging by ENT season 4, the Vulcans are right, and the Romulans propaganda).

Also fixes a bit of a plot hole of ST09, where Nero had no qualms about destroying Vulcan. That makes more sense if Romulans don't believe Vulcan is their homeworld as well.
Interesting observation. I like it. :)
 
But also, wouldn’t Narek want to point out how old the story of the ancients is? That it happened even before their people ever arrived on their earliest homeworld.

Now, it happened about 2-300,000 years ago, right? Humans have been evolving on Earth around that time, so the purge isn’t of all organic life, just intelligent life. That would allow for the term “arrival” to mean when their earliest Vulcanoid ancestors “arose” on Vulcan.

I'm not convinced that any information from that long ago could survive anywhere near intact. Also, if it predated the Romulans' departure, why is it only the Romulans who know about it? Why aren't there Zhat Vash on Vulcan too? (Oh doesn't count, since she's half-Romulan and a general in the Romulan military.)

Memory Alpha says the Admonition was discovered hundreds of years ago by Romulans investigating the Eightfold Stars, not hundreds of thousands of years ago by proto-Vulcans. Also, the timing is all wrong -- the cataclysm that devastated Aia was no more than 300,000 years ago, while Sargon's people's final war was 500,000 years ago. (Granted, though, it's only a hypothesis, not a certainty, that the Arretians settled Vulcan.)
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top