About Data’s request

[FredH]

The more I think about the Season One finale, the less sense it makes to me for Data to [want to have done] [what is done], or for Picard to agree to it. Sure, it’s thematically appropriate, resolves an issue from Nemesis, and acknowledges the practical realities of de-aging an actor for decades; but in-story, why should he want this now, as opposed to years or centuries down the line? (For that matter, why haven’t Alton & Maddox put him into one of the new android bodies?)

And likewise, why doesn’t Picard try to talk him out of it? He would value Data’s life for its own sake. Again, I get it’s thematically appropriate, but there’s no reason Data can’t have been having a full and productive life even confined to the simulation—unless there’s no communication interface between the sim and the outside world where Alton & Maddox we’re working, but why wouldn’t there be?

 

[caseylee4ts]

Spoiler: My thoughts

I guess I got the impression that Data had no contact with the outside world. That he was almost in some sort of limbo. Granted, I've only watched the episode once so far, but that's what I took from it. I think Picard feels sorry for Data. Data is essentially on life support. And Data once said that he took comfort knowing that he may someday die. That that would bring him all the more close to becoming human. Further, I think at this point, Data has been gone so long that he's ready to finally die. Even if the golum was meant for Data, Data's willingness to give up that possibility to once again sacrifice his life for Picard's would make Data, for all intents and purposes, happy. Can you imagine if Picard told Data that he wouldn't do it and made Data stay in that place for even longer? How selfish would that have been? It would at the very least have been very out of character for Picard. I think the whole scene was meant to be a chance for Picard to let Data go, much as we have to let go of people in our own lives.

 

[Mondragon]

... why should he want this now, as opposed to years or centuries down the line?

Cause he's already "died"* sacrificing himself, is how he connected with his humanity. (come read that again after you read the rest); his consciousness *artificially* persist through the synths.
He wants to be human.

(For that matter, why haven’t Alton & Maddox put him into one of the new android bodies?)

While they were using his engrams, that had not directly accessed his consciousness.
My understanding - By Picard's consciousness going into the synth body, is why he was able to reach Data.

.

And likewise, why doesn’t Picard try to talk him out of it? He would value Data’s life for its own sake. Again, I get it’s thematically appropriate, ...

Cause he's aware that....

....though many may desire immortally, he still wishes to die in order to learn what it is to be truly human.
For life to have true experience and meaning it must be aware it's finite. Only with the knowledge of inevitable death that we give life and purpose true value.
And Picard and Data's conversation alludes to Data's awareness of his pursuit and wish of allowing for death, in order to gain purpose.
It is the awareness of this^ in the end, that gives his life purpose.

... but there’s no reason Data can’t have been having a full and productive life even confined to the **simulation**

That's^*** exactly what he doesn't want.

.unless there’s no communication interface between the sim and the outside world where Alton & Maddox we’re working,

****!

 

[FredH]

Don’t really see much difference between Data’s consciousness being contained in a hypothetical new synth body and it’s having formerly been held in its old one — it was just as artificial in his original body, and that didn’t matter.

I can buy all this much more if Data’s really in limbo in there, with no continuing engagement with the world. I just have difficulty believing that the technology can simultaneously (a) maintain his consciousness in all its detail, (b) provide a medium for [a conscious copy of] Picard’s consciousness, which (c) it can then transfer to an artificial but living container in the outside world, plus (d) serve as the medium for interaction between consciousnesses held there, but yet can’t (e) also serve as Data’s “Waldo” into the physical world. (Though granted, Trek technology being inconsistently implied goes all the way back to the earliest days of the franchise.)

 

[Tarek71]

It was done for emotional impact. There was no reason for Data's consciousness to be recreated and put inside a Holo World, let alone put the copy of Picards consciousness in the Holo World with Data except for them to have a final scene together. They could have just installed the Picard memories directly into the "golem" without a pit stop in Holo World.

They wanted a tear jerk goodbye, and they got one. That was what this was about. In-story explanations are harder. Maybe Maddox was told by Holo Data (who could have appeared as the EMH) that he did not want to be reconstructed and put into a new body. Maybe he asked Maddox to do what Picard finally did but Maddox could not bring him self to delete the Data files. Who knows. Why does Data want to die? Surely if both of them could have beamed back from the Scimitar, he would have beamed back. Now he does not want to finally come back? They could have made a mortal body for him if thats what he wanted. Did he say no to that also? Why did he say no that? That is not explained.

 

[Tarek71]

Well the EMH has contact with the outside world. So he could have stayed a hologram and still been out in the world. Data only says that it is immortality that he didnt want. Ok. Well they know how to make mortal bodies, so problem solved.

 

[Makarov]

All picard has to do is plug in those USB sticks and revive him

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

All picard has to do is plug in those USB sticks and revive him

That power supply was keeping those positronic neurons (or whatever) "alive". Once Picard pulls the plug, that's it.

That's not to say there aren't more of those neurons somewhere else. Soong might have gotten hold of a few. He is a mad scientist after all.

 

[NCC-73515]

LAFORGE: Data, this has got to bother you a little.
DATA: On the contrary. I find it rather comforting.
LAFORGE: Comforting?
DATA: I have often wondered about my own mortality as I have seen others around me age. Until now it has been theoretically possible that I would live an unlimited period of time. And although some might find this attractive, to me it only reinforces the fact that I am artificial.
LAFORGE: I never knew how tough this must be for you.
DATA: Tough? As in difficult?
LAFORGE: Knowing that you would outlive all your friends.
DATA: I expected to make new friends.
LAFORGE: True.
DATA: And then to outlive them as well.
LAFORGE: Now that you know that you might not?
DATA: It provides a sense of completion to my future. In a way, I am not that different from anyone else. I can now look forward to death.
LAFORGE: I never thought of it that way.
DATA: One might also conclude that it brings me one step closer to being human. I am mortal.
(Time's Arrow, Part 1)

Finally fulfilled here!

 

[F. King Daniel]

why should he want this now, as opposed to years or centuries down the line?

We don't know how time passes in the construct. Moriarty described his passage of time in the Enterprise computer being a lot longer than what passed outside. Data may have been in there for much longer than 20 years

 

[Terok Nor]

Data said Altan Soong is an acquired taste. Does that mean he knows him personally? How could that be if Data has been dead/in holoworld for 20 years? Or are we to assume Altan met Data at some point after he was reactivated by Starfleet on Omicron Theta?

 

[Sisko_is_my_captain]

0.68 seconds is an eternity to an android.

I wonder if Data was curious whether his essence - his soul - would continue beyond death. Knowing him, he was.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

I completely agree with the OP. Making him a Golem/other body with a limited lifespan would really have made more sense for his character.

0.68 seconds is an eternity to an android.

I wonder if Data was curious whether his essence - his soul - would continue beyond death. Knowing him, he was.

Whilst I think you could be right on this, he would still be able to live to find this out at a later time.

However, I think all this is about closure to the narrative for a character that had already died. In that respect, it kind of works.

 

[Relayer1]

With B4 as a resource there is every possibility that another resurrection of Data will take place, probably with a body similar to Picards. And not requiring further imprisonment of the version in the artificial recreation.

The extraction and resurrection of Lal also, if more unlikely.

 

[eschaton]

It did irk me somewhat. I mean, it was within character for Data to want to fully experience what being human is - and part of that is arguably experiencing mortality. At the same time, there was no particular reason why it had to be that particular moment. Data clearly had contact with the outside world - otherwise he wouldn't have known about the plan to put Picard into the golem. He could have asked Soong or Maddox to pull the plug on him ages ago - and I think Maddox at the very least (if not Soong) would have agreed. Or, on the other hand, he could have experienced decades or centuries more subjective lifespan before finally expiring due to some sort of accident and/or equipment failure. In the end, Data died there because Spiner made it clear that he didn't want to play Data as a character any longer. And the words put in his mouth for why he wanted his life to end were Chabon talking about his personal philosophy on life - an authorial self-insertion. Which I think is fine, because Trek abounds with authorial self-insertion.

I have a bigger problem with how Picard's resurrection was dealt with, because it wasn't really needed from a narrative or thematic perspective. They could have just replaced part of his brain with a synthetic element and it would have had largely the same impact - minus five minutes (admittedly well written) fake-out melodrama between his "death" and realizing he was actually going to be okay.

 

[Jedi_Master]

The more I think about the Season One finale, the less sense it makes to me for Data to [want to have done] [what is done], or for Picard to agree to it. Sure, it’s thematically appropriate, resolves an issue from Nemesis, and acknowledges the practical realities of de-aging an actor for decades; but in-story, why should he want this now, as opposed to years or centuries down the line? (For that matter, why haven’t Alton & Maddox put him into one of the new android bodies?)

And likewise, why doesn’t Picard try to talk him out of it? He would value Data’s life for its own sake. Again, I get it’s thematically appropriate, but there’s no reason Data can’t have been having a full and productive life even confined to the simulation—unless there’s no communication interface between the sim and the outside world where Alton & Maddox we’re working, but why wouldn’t there be?

Because allowing Data - an artificial construct who did not choose to be born - the CHOICE to end his conscious existence, was the ultimate sign of respect from Picard. Data saved Picard's life, he owed him one.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Data clearly had contact with the outside world - otherwise he wouldn't have known about the plan to put Picard into the golem. He could have asked Soong or Maddox to pull the plug on him ages ago

It's possible that he was receiving (possibly limited) information about what the device he was in was being used for, without being able to communicate with the outside.

 

[eschaton]

Because allowing Data - an artificial construct who did not choose to be born - the CHOICE to end his conscious existence, was the ultimate sign of respect from Picard. Data saved Picard's life, he owed him one.

I remember back in TNG's Ethics, Riker was the one who really couldn't bring himself to act on Worf's suicide request, while Picard counseled him to look past his own feelings and consider that Worf's request for help with his suicide was a sign of trust and friendship.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Data said Altan Soong is an acquired taste. Does that mean he knows him personally? How could that be if Data has been dead/in holoworld for 20 years? Or are we to assume Altan met Data at some point after he was reactivated by Starfleet on Omicron Theta?

He was referring to "the Soongs" with that statement, so hard to tell how much he was aware of Altan.

 

[fireproof78]

I honestly think Data's choice is summed up aptly in his own discussion in "Time's Arrow" regarding his own mortality.

I think that Picard's ultimate fate is also summed up by his own words to Riker at the end of Generations.

I think both are fitting these characters, their respective journeys and character development.