Spoilers On the subject of Riker/Troi's kid

[trampledamage]

Is this whole she drowned vs. she was eaten by wolves thing in any way relevant to the actual discussion of whether Thad is trans or trans people in Trek in general? Cause I'm a bit confused by all of that.

No, and it's now getting in the way of an interesting wider discussion of representation in Trek, so let's just drop it please.

No more discussion of the dream imagery and the death of Kestra - drowning, wolves or otherwise in this thread. If it's really that interesting, start a new thread.

 

[chrinFinity]

No more discussion of the dream imagery and the death of Kestra - drowning, wolves or otherwise in this thread. If it's really that interesting, start a new thread.

I think that sensitive, intelligent people should be able to handle two topics in the same conversation, and I resent being shut down in my own thread after having my (apparently, unique) interpretation attacked from all sides and mocked. But fine, I will gather the evidence and start a wolf-related thread in the TNG forum at a time to be determined later.

As regards Thad:

We must first dispense with the specious argument that there is no point reconciling specific points of continuity between Picard and the Litverse on the supposed basis that “too much else has already been contradicted.” There are obviously some contradictions that will be challenging to reconcile, but in my opinion, the more that matches up, the better. Also, many of those supposed contradictions can be finessed.

Here are some of the arguments that have been put forth to controvert the perfectly reasonable theory that Thad and Natasha Troi-Riker are the same person, as well as my refutations of those points.

1. Picard calls Riker “Commander” in Nepenthe (as opposed to “Admiral”), and therefore Litverse is supposedly contradicted. In fact, Riker was promoted to Captain in Nemesis and Picard had certainly ought to have known that. So, whether or not he spoke inaccurately due to nostalgia from their time on the Enterprises or perhaps in some confusion due to Irrumodic syndrome, the reference to “Commander Riker” needs not contradict his promotion in the Litverse any more than it contradicts his promotion in Nemesis.
   
2. Photograph issue #1, that the baby in the photo is a boy. It’s ridiculous to insist that the baby in this photo (earlier in thread) must obviously be a boy (or a girl for that matter). Infants do not have gender (and for the sake of argument, that Starfleet baby-romper is gender-neutral anyway). The baby in that photo could be of either assigned sex— And no genitals are visible in the shot so it doesn’t disprove the theory that Thad was AFAB and originally called “Natasha.”
   
3. Photograph issue #2, time and place of the photo. Picard appears in his Admiral uniform, but the backdrop appears to match the Enterprise-E observation lounge. But as was earlier pointed out, this could be any ship, and regardless there are plenty of acceptable explanations for it even if it is determined to have been the Enterprise. The only real problem in this photograph is that Picard appears to be in an Admiral’s uniform as opposed to a Captain’s uniform, and that the wrong uniform style is shown if the photo was from 2381 or 2382. So, some difficult-to-reconcile contradictions exist with regard to this photograph. Some possible explanations for them could be that the photograph should be disregarded as a props-department mistake, or maybe Troi is mistaken and this is actually a photo of Kestra II instead of Thad.
   
4. The question of birth date and any arguments that Thad is the wrong age. In fact, Thad’s age was never established on screen so there was never any actual contradiction here. Furthermore, according to Memory Alpha, statements made by Michael Chabon would place Thad’s birth in 2381, which is the same year “Natasha” was born.
   
5. The argument that it would suck if Trek’s first screen-canonical trans person was a dead kid. Uncontested. But that’s not an argument against consistency of Thad/Natasha.

And finally, some points in defence of this theory:

• Thad was born and grew up on starships. Matches Natasha.
• Similar sounding name / same first initial, also it is consistent that both names are named after a deceased family member. This is not uncommon for Trans people, particularly when fictionalized in media, that they might choose a name with some similarity or relationship to the previous name. I did.
• That, of all the characters from TNG who might properly support a trans kid, I feel this most from Riker and Troi. She’s trained and has empathy, and he legit dated Soren in The Outcast so he gets it.

 

[Stephen!]

[*]The question of birth date and any arguments that Thad is the wrong age. In fact, Thad’s age was never established on screen so there was never any actual contradiction here.

The episode states that he would have turned 18, had he lived.

 

[The Wormhole]

Yeah, the episode is very clear Thad was born in 2381. It is vague on when he died, which is where the statements from Chabon come in (he says it was three years prior to the episode, meaning Thad would have been fifteen).

 

[cooleddie74]

And Kestra was old enough to have spent time growing up with him and missed him terribly at the time of Picard's and Soji's visit. My guess would be that Thad was born in 2381 and died in 2396 and that he died around the age that Kestra is in "Nepenthe(PIC)."

 

[chrinFinity]

Yeah, the episode is very clear Thad was born in 2381. It is vague on when he died, which is where the statements from Chabon come in (he says it was three years prior to the episode, meaning Thad would have been fifteen).

Natasha Troi-Riker was also born in 2381. So this is consistent.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Natasha Troi-Riker was also born in 2381. So this is consistent.

It seems to me that the timeline split just before the Caeliar incident. Seven still has her implants in "Picard" and they had crumbled away in the "Destiny" climax.

Did we tie ourselves in such knots trying to explain two author choices for the gender of Nurse Ogawa's child?

 

[trampledamage]

This post is not directed at Therin, it's just his is the most recent post and works as a useful example of both what I want and what I don't.

This is a mod request, not an official order, no rules are being broken - I just don't like negativity and right now I am getting way too much of it out in the real world, so I'm more sensitive to it here...

So, please can people stop criticising the purpose of this thread - chrinFinity wants to discuss the Tasha/Thad possibilities, so she can - we're all Trek nerds here, we've picked smaller things apart before!

Feel free to disagree with the argument - thus:

It seems to me that the timeline split just before the Caeliar incident. Seven still has her implants in "Picard" and they had crumbled away in the "Destiny" climax.

but not the discussion itself:

Did we tie ourselves in such knots trying to explain two author choices for the gender of Nurse Ogawa's child?

Thank you

 

[Jinn]

Similar sounding name / same first initial, also it is consistent that both names are named after a deceased family member. This is not uncommon for Trans people, particularly when fictionalized in media, that they might choose a name with some similarity or relationship to the previous name. I did.

That's an interesting point. Most trans pepople I know in real life that picked names similar to their deadnames or at least start with the same letter, picked those name at a (relatively) young age. Considering that Thad couldn't have been that old when he came out, that would also track.

Did we tie ourselves in such knots trying to explain two author choices for the gender of Nurse Ogawa's child?

I don't think that a character being trans can be considered as tieing someone in knots (unless the character is particularly kinky *badum tisch*). Now that you bring that up though, I think Ogawa's child being trans is actually a rather well working reconciliation, since the Genesis Wave is generally much closer to the Novelverse than Picard. That doesn't really resolve the matter of the father's death, but hey.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't think that a character being trans can be considered as tieing someone in knots...

I am saying that neither the writers of "Over a Torrent Sea" nor "Nepenthe" wrote the eldest Troi-Riker offspring as trans.

IIRC, Kirk's child in the "Shatnerverse" novels may be worth discussing in such a light? That was definitely author intention.
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Joseph_Kirk

This post is not directed at Therin, it's just his is the most recent post and works as a useful example of both what I want and what I don't.

Oops, was working backwards through the thread.

 

[Enterprise1701]

I thought the transgender community believed in a certain raison d'être that in a franchise like Star Trek, their analogous characters would be free to live as they please without fear. If that is the case in 2386 of Fortune of War, then what does Tasha Riker-Troi fear when surrounded by aliens of all stripes? Boogeymen of the 21st century?

 

[Jinn]

I am saying that neither the writers of "Over a Torrent Sea" nor "Nepenthe" wrote the eldest Troi-Riker offspring as trans.

They probably didn't, but them being the same person is kind of a very neat solution for a continuity problem. (One that I personally don't think needs resolving as I treat Picard and Novelverse seperately, but the point of the thread is going with that premise, so I'm doing that). Also, Thad wasn't written as cis either. Tasha, *so far*, was arguably written as cis, though.

IIRC, Kirk's child in the "Shatnerverse" novels may be worth discussing in such a light? That was definitely author intention.
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Joseph_Kirk

Oh, that's interesting! I didn't know that! Now, I'm trans and not inter, so I'm not exactly qualified to speak up on issues relating to inter people. That being said, while there is an overlap between trans and inter people, not all inter folks identify as trans. I also very much like that Joseph was aware of his status at such a young age and was able to make choices, regarding it. That's a pretty big step forward from the non-consentual operations performed on newborn inter people, often times without telling them afterwards, of today. I'll definitely check those books out, once I get through the ones I already bought.

I thought the transgender community believed in a certain raison d'être that in a franchise like Star Trek, their analogous characters would be free to live as they please without fear. If that is the case in 2386 of Fortune of War, then what does Tasha Riker-Troi fear when surrounded by aliens of all stripes? Boogeymen of the 21st century?

I haven't read Fortune of War yet, and I have no idea what this means.

 

[David cgc]

I haven't read Fortune of War yet, and I have no idea what this means.

He's using Fortune of War as the "present day" in the novelverse, and Tasha is Tasha in that book, so if we're presupposing Tasha/Thad transitioned very early in life in the PIC timeline, what's kept her from doing so in the novelverse timeline?

 

[Jinn]

He's using Fortune of War as the "present day" in the novelverse, and Tasha is Tasha in that book, so if we're presupposing Tasha/Thad transitioned very early in life in the PIC timeline, what's kept her from doing so in the novelverse timeline?

Ah, I see, thanks for explaining! Well, Tasha's five in Fortune of War, I think five or six would still count as coming out early in life. But even if it doesn't, there really isn't any time limit for the outing, beyond slightly below eighteen years.

 

[JD]

I don't think that a character being trans can be considered as tieing someone in knots (unless the character is particularly kinky *badum tisch*). Now that you bring that up though, I think Ogawa's child being trans is actually a rather well working reconciliation, since the Genesis Wave is generally much closer to the Novelverse than Picard. That doesn't really resolve the matter of the father's death, but hey.

Yeah, I think this would a situation where making the character trans actually does work, since both versions are meant to be the same character in the same continuity.

 

[David cgc]

Yeah, I think this would a situation where making the character trans actually does work, since both versions are meant to be the same character in the same continuity.

Except the Caeliar thing. Though I suppose Titan still could’ve found them, and they still elected to heal Troi, but without a Borg invasion going on at the same time, their escape happened somewhat differently.

 

[chrinFinity]

I am saying that neither the writers of "Over a Torrent Sea" nor "Nepenthe" wrote the eldest Troi-Riker offspring as trans.

Granted. But not, in and of itself, a refutation.

IIRC, Kirk's child in the "Shatnerverse" novels may be worth discussing in such a light? That was definitely author intention.

So, it's been some number of years since I read through the load of shat. But it seems Joseph was intersex and identified as male throughout his entire life. Not quite comparable.

I thought the transgender community believed in a certain raison d'être that in a franchise like Star Trek, their analogous characters would be free to live as they please without fear. If that is the case in 2386 of Fortune of War, then what does Tasha Riker-Troi fear when surrounded by aliens of all stripes? Boogeymen of the 21st century?

Would like to believe, yeah. But it would be nice to have our safety, inclusion and participation in the utopian future confirmed officially through the lens of Trek as fictional media in the 21st century. The counter-argument here is all of the nasty homophobic Star Trek fans who, in the face of the absence of queers in Trek in the 80's and 90's, would spout off that "obviously" homosexuality had been "cured" by the 24th century due to fabulous advancements in medical technology. If they had actually put gays in, then we wouldn't have had to defend ourselves quite as hard as we did. Still waiting for legitimate Trans inclusion. And unfortunately "oopsie-daisie character sex change" because two authors got mixed up about someone's pronouns, because a character's name was gender-ambiguous, doesn't count.

They probably didn't, but them being the same person is kind of a very neat solution for a continuity problem. (One that I personally don't think needs resolving as I treat Picard and Novelverse seperately, but the point of the thread is going with that premise, so I'm doing that).

Treating it as "alternate quantum realities" like in Parallels, it's preferable to think that Thad and Tasha are the same baby, and that other stuff diverged between Destiny and Picard.

Also, Thad wasn't written as cis either. Tasha, *so far*, was arguably written as cis, though.

I was written as cis for many years of my life but then my plot advanced. Granted not every trans person's experience is the same, but I worked very hard to be the best boy I could be, and I consider that I own the identity of boy as part of my history. There's no reason to deny Thad the identity of trans guy just because Natasha (at five years old) happens to wear the identity of "girl" fairly well. To assume otherwise is stereotypes.

I also very much like that Joseph was aware of his status at such a young age and was able to make choices, regarding it. That's a pretty big step forward from the non-consentual operations performed on newborn inter people, often times without telling them afterwards, of today. I'll definitely check those books out, once I get through the ones I already bought.

I wouldn't spend the time or money on the Shatnerverse but YMMV

Ah, I see, thanks for explaining! Well, Tasha's five in Fortune of War, I think five or six would still count as coming out early in life. But even if it doesn't, there really isn't any time limit for the outing, beyond slightly below eighteen years.

Five is pretty young. Especially growing up in a world where little girls are allowed to do little boy things. Probably transitioning still happens at various ages in Trek. There's no reason to assume that, pathologically speaking, Trans identities would be "detected and corrected" very early in life. Rather, I think it's more realistic to expect we would still self-discover at various stages and just find more acceptance and support in the 24th century than we do in the 21st. It's VERY notable that Natasha (And Rene Picard-Crusher for that matter) have been so heavily and intensely gendered by their parents, based on their genitals. No matter how Natasha feels, she's still been told "You're a girl" by everyone around her on the ship (in, like, forty-seven languages no less). It's reasonable to think a trans boy would still be confused at that age given how the child's upbringing has been depicted so far in the novels.

Except the Caeliar thing. Though I suppose Titan still could’ve found them, and they still elected to heal Troi, but without a Borg invasion going on at the same time, their escape happened somewhat differently.

This is the most interesting point in the divergence, in my opinion. I want to do some more research into what the medical issues were with the birth and try to figure out what happened differently in the Picard timeline and how it is justified given the (presumed) absence of the Caeliar incident.

Another possible interpretation is that not all Borg tech in the galaxy dissolved, and that Seven had to give up her catoms and got her face junk back again somehow.

 

[chrinFinity]

So, please can people stop criticising the purpose of this thread - chrinFinity wants to discuss the Tasha/Thad possibilities, so she can - we're all Trek nerds here, we've picked smaller things apart before!

Thank you

Thanks btw. The mod in the TNG thread came in and made fun of my wolf attack interpretation too, even after I asked for a serious discussion. So it's nice that we can at least have a meaningful conversation about Thad. That's something.

 

[Jinn]

Treating it as "alternate quantum realities" like in Parallels, it's preferable to think that Thad and Tasha are the same baby, and that other stuff diverged between Destiny and Picard

Personally, I don't think about seperate continuities as alternate realities, like the ones from "Parallels", or the mirror universe, or any other in-universe phenomenon but rather as just unrelated narrative worlds, that are completely unconnected in-universe. Like, how I don't think that Star Wars and Star Trek are alternate realities.

There's no reason to deny Thad the identity of trans guy just because Natasha (at five years old) happens to wear the identity of "girl" fairly well. To assume otherwise is stereotypes.

I'm sorry if I came across like I was saying that, I just meant to point out the authorial intent behind the characters. FWIW I really don't care about authorial intent anyway.

I was written as cis for many years of my life but then my plot advanced. Granted not every trans person's experience is the same, but I worked very hard to be the best boy I could be, and I consider that I own the identity of boy as part of my history.

I think about this a lot, and I don't think any gendered labels really apply to my first couple of years, I like to think of my first six-ish years as just genderless blob who is told that she's a boy, on occasion. That's then followed by another six-ish of low-key girl-ness surpressed by societies expectation of me, followed by six years of a weird, fractured state, where I project a cishet male facade, while concealing something of an unreal feeling of femaleness, followed by so far two years of being out. Also, what the fuck is up with the six years thing. And what's gonna happen in four years?!

I wouldn't spend the time or money on the Shatnerverse but YMMV

I've already heard a bunch of stuff about it, and it sounds rather, well, entertaining in the bad kind of way, but still entertaining.