I think logistics were an excuse. I think it was fear.
To those who think the Feds would never betray the Romulans
- Thread starter Charles Phipps
- Start date
From a KAJILLION Fed citizens POV its not even a betrayal.
Imagine the following argument: I'm fudging some details cause i don't have exact details, but at the same time...neither would every Fed.
"We just lost 80,000 (?) fucking people!! 8 Wolf 359s!....the Romulans hid this for two years and spent that time taking care of their elite class. So WE put together the means to save their asses. Fuck them. They have a fucking empire and they STILL have about two more years to evacuate one fucking system. Shit, I could replicate a one man craft in two weeks. Fuck them, let them deal with it."
Now, i don't have details as to what happened after the Mars attack. They REALLY should have been able to take care of their own in two years. I'm going to assume they got the vast majority off, and the real problem is that rather then an orderly flow of people finding new homes, we got a nightmare refugee problem
Imagine the following argument: I'm fudging some details cause i don't have exact details, but at the same time...neither would every Fed.
"We just lost 80,000 (?) fucking people!! 8 Wolf 359s!....the Romulans hid this for two years and spent that time taking care of their elite class. So WE put together the means to save their asses. Fuck them. They have a fucking empire and they STILL have about two more years to evacuate one fucking system. Shit, I could replicate a one man craft in two weeks. Fuck them, let them deal with it."
Now, i don't have details as to what happened after the Mars attack. They REALLY should have been able to take care of their own in two years. I'm going to assume they got the vast majority off, and the real problem is that rather then an orderly flow of people finding new homes, we got a nightmare refugee problem
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Gonzo
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The have's made their escape which left the have not's to take a Supernova in the face.
Wonder if we'll get an exciting flashback of Riker beaming people off at random right up to the last second. Shit... for something so tense, I'd like to see an entire ep.
Transporter chief: "How do I choose???"
Riker: "Just beam at random. Start picking off children!!"
Ops: "Captain, telemetry shows the sun has novaed! We have approximentally 6 minutes!"
Chief: "I can't make these decisions!!"
Pardon my French but too damn bad. Look at my signature.
Tarses' problem was not necessarily that he was 1/4 Romulan. There's no proof that, had he come clean about it, there would have been any issue.
The problem was that Tarses lied. It doesn't matter what he lied ABOUT. The mere fact that he lied about anything on his Academy application, is a major red flag.
Wasn't one of those worlds that threatened to leave Andor? And I would think the Benzite world wouldn't have too much love for the Romulans, nor Bajor. That's three major names, two of which are very recent additions and one which was a core Foundation founder and only 11 LY from Sol (if Andor = Procyon).
Losing Andor, irking Bajor, and the Benzites would not be worth it. Bajor holds the Wormhole, and they've been Spacefaring for 500k years. Andor is a major military, and maybe industrial power in the heart of the Federation (though they've really been whittled down in numbers as of late, I recall?). If at the least, the Federation doesn't want to lose members in the Post-Dominion War era. They're technically fine if one system wants to leave by its lonesome, but to face a coordinated movement, of potentially strategically placed worlds they've just gotten, is too much.
Losing Andor, irking Bajor, and the Benzites would not be worth it. Bajor holds the Wormhole, and they've been Spacefaring for 500k years. Andor is a major military, and maybe industrial power in the heart of the Federation (though they've really been whittled down in numbers as of late, I recall?). If at the least, the Federation doesn't want to lose members in the Post-Dominion War era. They're technically fine if one system wants to leave by its lonesome, but to face a coordinated movement, of potentially strategically placed worlds they've just gotten, is too much.
We have no idea.
All we know is that 17 members of the Federation threatened to secede. We don't know if Andor was one of those. Although I wouldn't exactly be surprised...
Wasn’t the issue is that he felt the need to lie?
Anyway, in reference to amassing a second fleet, if there is such a thing as Federation exceptionalism, that was an opportunity to really show it.
I would be concerned at the environment in which an applicant feels the need to lie about any heritage.
Well, it isn’t just any heritage. It’s that of a two-hundred year old super-secretive active enemy who looks just like your neighbor and thinks of you as a waste of skin.
Again, I question the environment when that heritage, from his grandfather (not even his parents) makes him feel the need to lie. First duty and all that jazz looks really bad in light of this paranoid behavior.
It's a matter of degrees. People in most countries, including free ones like the United States and in Europe (including during their most liberal heydays) lie about their heritage and most countries are not run by Nazis or the like.
They do? O_o
Interesting...still doesn't make how Simon was treated OK, nor does it illustrate a positive view of the Federation, at least in that instance.
I've personally met people that have been cautious about who they divulge their heritage to in the United States, Greece, and France, including an Iraqi family that opened a diner here in (suburban) Pennsylvania, a Sudanese family that rented a room nearby, various Albanian workers and citizens in Greece, a taxi driver of still-unknown origin in Paris, a...
No, it's not okay at all. But it suggests that the Federation can be a very liberal free and open society and still have bullshit happen within. Especially given how vast it is and the different cultures within. Maybe Tarses was afraid of elements in Starfleet (who've lost blood to Romulus) would judge him, especially if well-meaning relatives raised him to hide himself.
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OK. I personally have not encountered that here in Eastern Washington. Have worked with a variety of people in both retail and counseling fields. Personal history was rarely a matter of concern. Interesting to read about.
Now, l'm not saying that it doesn't happen. Just unusual in my experience.
Yes, that is exactly right.
In fairness, we have seen the Federation engage in the policy of allowing extinction-level events to occur in the past without intervention. In both "Pen Pals" and "Homeward," the Federation was prepared to allow entire societies to go extinct before individuals broke Federation law. The Federation also allowed Bajor (and probably other worlds) to be brutally occupied for decades, all in the name of non-interventionism.
I can see there being Federates out there arguing that the Romulans should take care of themselves and that it would be interfering in their natural evolution to intervene. And if it ends up taking out one of the Federation's major hostile rivals, so much the better.
They would be wrong, but they would represent a continuation of Federation policies and attitudes we have already seen.
Ever heard of the Compromise of 1877? That's not too far off from what actually happened. After a little over a decade of Reconstruction, the federal government essentially cut a deal with the white Southern elites to withdraw federal forces from the former Confederacy and let them re-take control of the former Confederate states, in return for letting the Republicans take the White House. As a direct result of this, the former Confederate states passed their "Black Codes," Jim Crow was established, black people were disenfranchised and disproportionately incarcerated on flimsy excuses, and de facto slavery was restored via chain gangs that leased out convict labor to private interests.
Canonically it has not been established which worlds threatened to secede. However, I think you're confusing the Romulans/worlds threatening secession plot thread from PIC, with the Andorian secession plotline from the Trek novels.
(For the record, Andor only seceded as a result of the rise of a xenophobic nationalist movement and foreign manipulate of public opinion, and it rejoined a few years later after that nationalist movement was exposed.)
Benzar could plausibly have been one of the worlds threatening secession given DS9 establishing that they're near the Romulan border and were taken from Dominion occupation forces by the Romulans.
We don't canonically know that Bajor has joined the Federation in 2385 (though it did join in 2376 in the novels). Assuming it has, I don't know that Bajor would have strong feelings about the matter. Yeah, the Romulans tried to establish a base on one of their moons, but that was resolved very quickly and the Romulans backed down.
Decreased Andorian population is from the novels, not the canon.
I agree. But there is no such thing as Federation exceptionalism. There is no such thing as any exceptionalism. No people is inherently superior to another, and all cultures are susceptible to regressive, nationalistic politics.
FTR...Homeward either says or implies that ENT-D shows up too late to save the planet and I at least understand the idea of not saving some.
Abrams Trek definition of the PD is dumb
TOS Trek fully supported saving 'primitive' societies.
TNG interp is dumb and despite PEn Pals, I'd like to think the Feds would have saved that planet on Homeward if they could....and GAWD the argumentsin Pen Pals are just asinine...drifting into destiny and such.
Abrams Trek definition of the PD is dumb
TOS Trek fully supported saving 'primitive' societies.
TNG interp is dumb and despite PEn Pals, I'd like to think the Feds would have saved that planet on Homeward if they could....and GAWD the argumentsin Pen Pals are just asinine...drifting into destiny and such.
You may have a point here, except there's a very different reason why that happens...if one that maybe we don't think is morally sound in retrospect. Still, I don't know that either of those is anywhere near the scale of loss that would have happened here. Also, there's something especially icky about being pleased with an enemy's not defeat but extinction.
They can't be everywhere at once. Should the Federation take on the Klingon, Romulan, and other empires for the sake of interventionism?
Or maybe they really like the Romulans for liberating them, then coaxing them to maybe stay-with?
There's the concept of it, and that's what I was addressing. Though, the fact that they even tried to aid such an enemy is something maybe beyond say the Klingons or Sheliak, among others...maybe us. They're still pretty freaking great.
Don't forget Picard giving Riker a pat on the back for not saving a little girl by not using his Q powers.
I know it is not directly PD example, but it was incredibly strange for Picard to be like "No, it was right for you not to try to save that little girl."
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