How Do You Feel About Chakotay?

[catshadowsi8]

I think neither Beltran nor Ryan understood (or rather felt any authenticity regarding) the pairing in Endgame because they were both told specifically not to "play that angle" in Natural Law. Human Error worked to an extent (for me anyway) in giving us some info on Seven trying to regain her humanity and struggling. And, yes, also showing that she was developing feelings for Chakotay... Natural Law was a missed opportunity to expound on what was already started and would have taken some of the awkwardness out of the paring in the finale. Telling the two not to play up their feelings for one another in NL was a big mistake on the part of the creators/writers. Even something subtle (like a glance between them) in one or two spots would have worked well imho. I suspect that might have been the impetus for Beltran prompting Braga with that dare.

Totally agree with this post. In Human Error the attraction and chemistry was apparent. I actually wanted to see more C/7, it was that good. Then Natural Law hit the screen and there was nothing. Not even flicker!

Ryan herself mentions it as one of her greatest disappointments in the series. Both she and Beltran approached tptb and were told absolutely no to anything romantic. She has publicly said she wished she had defied them. I believe this is why the scenes on Endgame are awkward. They felt blindsided and a little betrayed.

 

[STEPhon IT]

The way i saw their relationship....

Janeway rejected him so instead of pining away for her he moved on. It makes sense it was Seven since they're both members of the senior staff they spend a lot of time together. The only other woman he spent time with was B'elanna and she was taken. A few episodes before Endgame Seven has the hologram of chakotay which opens her eyes to him. Then they crash on that planet together. In Endgame we see then after one or two dates. It was the very beginning of their romantic relationship.

And Seven some how was killed in the fake timeline, wouldn't the story's plot be fitting for a Janeway/Chakotay tale in Endgame? Hard to be invested in a episode where the plots resists the story. The final episode was ALL GOOD THINGS... without the substance, it's appalling to the characters and the fans to produce a menial finale. How Chakotay's fling with Seven came about was as irrelevant as Janeway's plotline with the FC Borg Queen.

 

[andersonh1]

I like Chakotay quite a bit as a character, but I think the character loses his purpose and direction on the show when two things happen: the Maquis conflict is written out and when Seska is written out of the show. The character seemed clearly designed to be the bridge between Starfleet and the Maquis, with his major purposes and conflicts coming from that source, but with that gone, the writers struggle to find things to do with him. Beltran is a fine actor, though sometimes he seems to sleepwalk through a script. Give him something substantive to do, and he'll deliver the goods.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I like Chakotay quite a bit as a character, but I think the character loses his purpose and direction on the show when two things happen: the Maquis conflict is written out and when Seska is written out of the show. The character seemed clearly designed to be the bridge between Starfleet and the Maquis, with his major purposes and conflicts coming from that source, but with that gone, the writers struggle to find things to do with him. Beltran is a fine actor, though sometimes he seems to sleepwalk through a script. Give him something substantive to do, and he'll deliver the goods.

The writers found it hard to find things to do with a lot of the characters in all of the shows. Every show has it's "standout" character or characters... those characters often carry the majority of scenes and plot lines, while the rest evolve into supporting roles.

I'm glad they got rid of Seska and glad that the maquis "conflict" wasn't any more prominent than it was. It wouldn't make much sense for the maquis crew members to constantly battle the Voyager crew from within, and I could do with out Seska taking over the ship once a season.

I think Chakotay did a great job in the episodes where he is featured prominently, and in scenes where he's featured prominently. I also like the Tuvok character a lot, and wish he had a few more episodes.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I was one of those that liked Chakotay. He had a certain pragmatism about him. Janeway was always ready to go where angels fear to tread and he was a good counterbalance to that. I'm not sure I'd agree that he was relegated to a background character after season 3. I thought he played a key role in a number of episodes. Now like all the characters he had his moments and there were episodes where he was filler, but that's true of all the characters. Even in a show like TNG there were times Riker was in the background. And I'll agree after Seven came on board a lot of focus shifted to her, but I didn't notice a significant change in screen time or plot time for Chakotay.

Surprised that Tuvok has as many lines as Chakotay. I wonder if Tuvix's lines counted for both Tuvok and Neelix?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don’t dislike him as much as some people do, except the cases he portrays inaccurate stereotypes.

I feel like the boring scripts they gave him and his lack of effort were a self perpetuating cycle. If they had written him better I think Beltran would have risen to the task. As they wrote him, he was boring and Beltran phoned it in.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

But one thing seems to be clear and accepted: Seven/Chakotay's romance from s7 of Voyager was completly forgotten by ST: Picard's producers/writers as if it had never happened. They even went so far to imply that our Seven, older and wiser, had become intimately linked to a woman. whom she was attached, as she was with Icheb, she called her adopted son.

 

[Dukhat]

They even went so far to imply that our Seven, older and wiser, had become intimately linked to a woman, whom she was attached...

No, they didn’t.

 

[marlboro]

I think he's ok. Unity and Nemesis are two very strong episodes. I think I find the character to be most interesting when he comes into conflict with Janeway. I wish they had sparred more often, particularly early on.

 

[Arpy]

I thought Chakotay was a wasted opportunity, not helped by Beltran's checked-out attitude. Maybe peak Chakotay was "Resolutions," then he was assimilated.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

No, they didn’t.

Really? Maybe I'm wrong but if Seven was so furious against Bjayzl, it was not only because but because this tragic episode would never have happened if she hadn't trusted this woman with whom she was so close (=intimate).
So, IMHO, if Chakotay was supposed to be her kindred spirit besides being her potential lover as suggested in Endgame, she has had a real closure since a long time OR like I wrote in my last post, her romantic association with Chakotay was erased, plain and simple by producers.
-> in the life of an individual, there are highlights that you can hardly forget, like all the first time (first friends, first loving emotions, first intercourses, first serious boyfriend to the point of considering marriage to him/her, children from the first time we see them then see them grow). Even if her voice, her clothes, her gestures, her state of mind changed in 19 years, the feelings which never changed since her impromptu meeting in Borg Cube were those she felt with the one she considered as her son. And I bet that in a corner of her heart and head, it is the same for Janeway, the one who had saved her from her fate, in allowing her to regain her humanity.

 

[Dukhat]

Really? Maybe I'm wrong but if Seven was so furious against Bjayzl, it was not only because but because this tragic episode would never have happened if she hadn't trusted this woman with whom she was so close (=intimate).
So, IMHO, if Chakotay was supposed to be her kindred spirit besides being her potential lover as suggested in Endgame, she has had a real closure since a long time OR like I wrote in my last post, her romantic association with Chakotay was erased, plain and simple by producers.
-> in the life of an individual, there are highlights that you can hardly forget, like all the first time (first friends, first loving emotions, first intercourses, first serious boyfriend to the point of considering marriage to him/her, children from the first time we see them then see them grow). Even if her voice, her clothes, her gestures, her state of mind changed in 19 years, the feelings which never changed since her impromptu meeting in Borg Cube were those she felt with the one she considered as her son. And I bet that in a corner of her heart and head, it is the same for Janeway, the one who had saved her from her fate, in allowing her to regain her humanity.

Please give me exact quotes from the episode where there is incontrovertible proof that Bjayzl and Seven has a past romantic relationship, because it sounds to me like you’re just trying to intimate something that isn’t actually there for whatever personal reason or agenda you have.

 

[catshadowsi8]

Sounds like you want 7 to bat for the other team but I did not then, or now, see that. I saw a very deep friendship's trust shattered, like how 7 would feel if Janeway did the same thing.

I was never a real fan of 7/Chakotay but, like it or not, you cannot erase something that is canon. You may want to but you can't. I find it interesting that 7 is basically Chakotay revisited. She is a rebel with a cause. Heck, she even dresses like him when he was with the Marquis, leather jacket (he wore a vest but whatever) and all. Even the battle where 7 shows up is similiar to the destruction of the Val Jean in Voyager.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Please give me exact quotes from the episode where there is incontrovertible proof that Bjayzl and Seven has a past romantic relationship, because it sounds to me like you’re just trying to intimate something that isn’t actually there for whatever personal reason or agenda you have.

Strictly speaking, there's no quote as reference but Jeri Ryan, who I think knows what she's talking about, clearly said in interviews for Picard that Bjayzl and Seven were intimate. Moreover, it only escaped a few people after the releasing of 1x05 that this past relationship was clearly suggested.

https://comicbook.com/startrek/2020...en-of-nine-lgbtq-lesbian-confirmed-jeri-ryan/
["Star Trek finally confirms a major character's LGBTQ status"
Star Trek: Picard episode 5 "Stardust City Rag" sees Jean-Luc Picard (Patrick Stewart) and his rag-tag crew go undercover on the casino planet of Freecloud to locate Bruce Maddox, the cybernetics and android scientist that created Data's twin "daughters" Dahj and Soji. Maddox is being held prisoner by "Bjayzl" (Necar Zadegan), a businesswoman who hacks up former Borg drones for cybernetic parts to sell on the black market.

After encountering Seven of Nine on the entry to Freecloud, Picard learns that her militia group the Fenris Rangers had some dark history with Bjayzl. That history involved Bjayzl infiltrating the Fenris Rangers and getting close to Seven of Nine - very close, as it turns out. While never spelled out, it's made very clear that Bjayzl and Seven were "intimate," and that's why Bjayzl's betrayal and murder of Icheb, Seven of Nine's close friend / surrogate son from Star Trek: Voyager.

In the end, this was an exciting evolution of Seven of Nine's character from Star Trek: Voyager, as well as a much-needed course correction. Seven sexuality is now firmly set as bi-sexual, having had both male and female lovers. That's a big change from when Voyager was airing in the late '90s; at the time, producer Jeri Taylor actually admitted to TV Guide that they had dropped the ball with Seven of Nine as a potential LGBTQ character:

"The idea is something I’m absolutely sympathetic with, and I have tried several times to do it. But for various reasons there has been opposition, and it gradually became clear that this is a fight I could not win."

Consider one more battle in this fight now won.
]

So my "whatever personal reason or agenda I have"????

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

The showrunner seems to think so, too, but hey, what does he know!

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/star-trek-picard-stardust-city-rag-episode-5-recap/

"
Star Trek: Picard hasn’t featured any explicitly LGBTQ characters yet, which is really a surprise considering Star Trek’s history. TNG aired a trans-coded episode back in 1992, Deep Space Nine featured one of the first lesbian kisses on American TV, and Discovery includes a gay couple in the main cast. It feels weird to see Seven embroiled in a sexually charged standoff where this woman refers to her as “the one that got away,” while the nature of their relationship remains technically ambiguous.

Long-running franchises rarely allow legacy characters to come out, and Seven would be an ideal choice if they did it properly. During Voyager’s run, her popularity was influenced by her arguably exploitative image as a sex symbol, and her story concluded with a very unpopular romance. Fans were more likely to ship Seven (and her eventual boyfriend Chakotay) with Captain Janeway, and Janeway/Seven was one of the most popular femslash pairings of the nineties. They’re basically the Xena and Gabrielle of Star Trek, laying the groundwork for Seven to have a female love-interest in Picard.

I suspect the end of the episode is why the show’s creators chickened out. Whatever Jay and Seven’s relationship was before, Seven now wants her dead. After Picard’s crew rescue Bruce Maddox, Seven borrows a couple of phasers and returns to the nightclub, where she assassinates Jay. So if the show made Seven more obviously queer, they’d also be delivering a scenario where she murders her ex-girlfriend in the same episode. Discovery was criticized for playing into the “bury your gays” trope, so I can see why Picard chose not to define this relationship. Personally, though, I thought it was a fumbled opportunity. In a show that’s making some bold moves elsewhere, they’re oddly conservative about queer representation.
"

https://www.vulture.com/2020/02/jeri-ryan-seven-of-nine-star-trek-picard-interview.html

"
I’m really excited to see where her storyline goes. I thought the exchange between Bjayzl and Seven was really fascinating at the end of the episode before Seven killed her. Bjayzl mentions that Seven has no hope. Do you agree with that?
I think that’s something we’re going to see her have to find as the season goes on. That’s part of her arc this year.

What was your favorite aspect of Seven’s arc in this episode?
I mean, the storyline is just gut-wrenching. What she goes through breaks my heart. But I love that it shows her resilience. She had to live through that horrific experience of having to put what is essentially her son out of his misery, watching him suffer. For all those 13 years that followed she’s been hunting this character she was really close to and trusted, Bjayzl, and finally gets to a point where she can seek her revenge. And I think as time goes on we find out if taking that life was really the closure she was seeking. It’s something she is going to struggle with coming to terms with [about] humanity — what it is and what it means.
"

https://www.reddit.com/r/Picard/comments/f7v31f/spoilers_all_seven_of_nine_a_lesbian/

 

[cosmic mouse]

The showrunner seems to think so, too, but hey, what does he know!

I was about to point that out... the guy that wrote the episode flat-out said the intent was that there was past intimacy between the two.

Personally, if one hadn't read Chabon's comment about the scene, it really could go either way. IMO there is no problem with a viewer reading into things one way or the other. I can look at a piece of artwork and maybe see something different than the person next to me; that doesn't mean that one of us is wrong and it's not a slight on the artist's intent either, but that is my opinion only.
It's not as if the entire series of Picard hinges on this one exchange between individuals anyway. If it does then I guess we'll find out in a future episode.

 

[catshadowsi8]

Personally, if one hadn't read Chabon's comment about the scene, it really could go either way. IMO there is no problem with a viewer reading into things one way or the other.

I have read absolutely nothing about this series (totally spoiler free) so I can only go with what I see on screen and it is ambigous at best. Frankly I'm fine with her being bisexual but it still doesn't erase her romance with Chakotay. Imo they are two distinctly different relationships.

 

[Dukhat]

Consider one more battle in this fight now won.

Except there wasn’t any battle, at least for me. I asked you to provide dialogue or scenes from the episode that gave definitive proof that there was a past romantic relationship between Seven and Bjayzl, because you keep bringing the subject up, and you couldn’t. I’m not interested in what Michael Chabon said or what his intent was. I’m only interested in what the episode showed. And the websites you quote for your evidence are just clickbait sites, so they are far from reliable sources anyway.

Now it might be coming across like I have some sort of problem with LGBQT characters in Star Trek, but I don’t. As a matter of fact, Stamets and Culber are my favorite characters in DSC. The issue I have is when I perceive that someone is trying to push an agenda based on something that isn’t really there. No offense.

 

[BillJ]

The showrunner seems to think so, too, but hey, what does he know!

But comments by this showrunner don't stop the next showrunner from giving Seven a completely different preference. If you want something to stick, the best way to do it is not try to be cute and spell it out onscreen.

I read what was onscreen as Seven and Bjayzl had an extremely close relationship at some point, that doesn't make Seven 100% Lesbian, and another showrunner can read the scene completely differently than I have and make choices according to how they interpret it.