To those who think the Feds would never betray the Romulans

[Charles Phipps]

I also don't think they actually did that much wrong depending on how much damage was done to a settled planet of the Federation. How populated was Mars? Is it like an Expanse-level entire inhabited planet and culture? Was it just a single shipyards? How big of a deal was Picard ignoring in his own borders?

 

[Lord Garth]

Not one of Kirk's finest moments. "Our manners weren't exactly Emily Post."

That aside: the conflict with the Romulans, after the 22nd Century, was always a Cold War between them and the Federation. Throughout TOS, TNG, and DS9, there was the threat of armed conflict, but it never came to that. Except for probably the Tomed Incident. But that was in 2311. Way, way, way before 2385. That would be something the average Starfleet Officer would've learned about in History Class, not something they experienced themselves.

 

[thribs]

They never betrayed them. The Romulans barely wanted any help and so I doubt they're that bothered that they left.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I also don't think they actually did that much wrong depending on how much damage was done to a settled planet of the Federation. How populated was Mars? Is it like an Expanse-level entire inhabited planet and culture? Was it just a single shipyards? How big of a deal was Picard ignoring in his own borders?

Over 93,000 dead at Utopia Planitia, as per the interview in Rememberance. And that was a skeleton crew due to it being a Federation holiday.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Federation's decision to abandon the rescue attempt is understandable.

Not only was the rescue fleet wiped out in the synth attack on Mars, 17 worlds were threatening to secede. Admiral Clancy had a perfectly valid point: why should the Federation allow itself to be torn apart in order to mount an impossible (due to a lack of available ships) rescue attempt?

I mean, it wasn't like the Federation was going "lol go screw yourselves kthxbai". They had to consider the greater picture.

 

[BillJ]

Not only was the rescue fleet wiped out in the synth attack on Mars, 17 worlds were threatening to secede.

Where exactly were those worlds going to go? Without being under the Federation umbrella, they likely lacked protection from the Klingons, Tholian, Tzenkethi, Breen and a whole hose of other hostile races. Even if they did leave, the first one attacked and conquered would've sent the rest banging on the Federation's door for readmittance and protection.

It was an empty threat.

The only areas where the Federation gets a pass was that the Romulan government and Tal-Shiar were making the evacuations much harder than they needed to be and the attack on Mars, which would necessitate a scaled-back evacuation plan.

The Federation had no real reason to quit other than they lacked the will to confront their conservative elements.

 

[Tracer Bullet]

Where exactly were those worlds going to go? Without being under the Federation umbrella, they likely lacked protection from the Klingons, Tholian, Tzenkethi, Breen and a whole hose of other hostile races. Even if they did leave, the first one attacked and conquered would've sent the rest banging on the Federation's door for readmittance and protection.

It was an empty threat.

The only areas where the Federation gets a pass was that the Romulan government and Tal-Shiar were making the evacuations much harder than they needed to be and the attack on Mars, which would necessitate a scaled-back evacuation plan.

The Federation had no real reason to quit other than they lacked the will to confront their conservative elements.

It’s possible those 17 planets were going to form their own alliance.

 

[Crazyewok]

Over 93,000 dead at Utopia Planitia, as per the interview in Rememberance. And that was a skeleton crew due to it being a Federation holiday.

The fact a day was chosen when the most minimal number of people where there.

Makes wonder if it wasn't someone in the federation that planned it.

 

[Makarov]

I just want to know what Q thinks about the whole thing. And shouldn't Starfleet have taken into account if you cross Picard's morality you risk angering the Q continuum

 

[fireproof78]

Where exactly were those worlds going to go? Without being under the Federation umbrella, they likely lacked protection from the Klingons, Tholian, Tzenkethi, Breen and a whole hose of other hostile races. Even if they did leave, the first one attacked and conquered would've sent the rest banging on the Federation's door for readmittance and protection.

It was an empty threat.

The only areas where the Federation gets a pass was that the Romulan government and Tal-Shiar were making the evacuations much harder than they needed to be and the attack on Mars, which would necessitate a scaled-back evacuation plan.

The Federation had no real reason to quit other than they lacked the will to confront their conservative elements.

Not sure it was so empty. The Maquis were one thing but even Eddington noted that it was almost unthinkable that people would leave the Federation. So, the idea, when the Federation had just survived through nasty wars, losses and substantial cost of resources and lives, and then have people go "Hey, we're going to quit" probably hit quite hard to the Federation as a whole.

And where would they go? Well, 17 planets is no small segment. So, they could easily align themselves together to negotiate with other regional powers.

I think there are a lot of factors at play, so to say its an empty threat is, well, a bit empty, to my view.

 

[BillJ]

Not sure it was so empty. The Maquis were one thing but even Eddington noted that it was almost unthinkable that people would leave the Federation. So, the idea, when the Federation had just survived through nasty wars, losses and substantial cost of resources and lives, and then have people go "Hey, we're going to quit" probably hit quite hard to the Federation as a whole.

And where would they go? Well, 17 planets is no small segment. So, they could easily align themselves together to negotiate with other regional powers.

I think there are a lot of factors at play, so to say its an empty threat is, well, a bit empty, to my view.

Maybe? But if they don’t believe in Federation values, are they really worlds that should be given the power to kill the plans of the other 130+ members?

 

[Gonzo]

Over 93,000 dead at Utopia Planitia, as per the interview in Rememberance. And that was a skeleton crew due to it being a Federation holiday.

So its possible that the attack was made that day to actually limit casualties compared to what it could have been, even so someone has to answer for it.

The Federation's decision to abandon the rescue attempt is understandable.

Not only was the rescue fleet wiped out in the synth attack on Mars, 17 worlds were threatening to secede. Admiral Clancy had a perfectly valid point: why should the Federation allow itself to be torn apart in order to mount an impossible (due to a lack of available ships) rescue attempt?

I mean, it wasn't like the Federation was going "lol go screw yourselves kthxbai". They had to consider the greater picture.

It was an incredibly complicated undertaking, both in terms of ships, resources, suitable planets and political capital.

There is no real guarantee it would have worked if the attack had not happened but some would have been saved, being shown to try as hard they could would have meant a lot to the Romulans who probably saw it as a fools errand anyway.

A lot would have depended on the exact terms of the resettlement's, also on whether the planets chosen would be given a choice or not.

No question it would be an absolute mess with some serious risks attached, however it must also be said that the potential gains could have been huge.

Ultimately the Federation finally had the opportunity to show the Romulan's that it was capable of more than just platitudes and words, in that it failed.

Its the sort of test I could see the Q being behind, to really see if the Federation act as righteous and noble in the bad times as they claim to be in the good times.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe? But if they don’t believe in Federation values, are they really worlds that should be given the power to kill the plans of the other 130+ members?

Who said anything about not believing in Federation values? They simply don't see the means to follow through, and disagree with the execution. The Federation is not monolithic.

 

[BillJ]

Who said anything about not believing in Federation values? They simply don't see the means to follow through, and disagree with the execution. The Federation is not monolithic.

How can one say they believe in those values while stopping a mission to keep Romulans from cooking in a supernova? This wasn’t “well, we need to re-examine how and how much we can help in the wake of the Mars attack?”, this was “give it up entirely or we quit.”

 

[fireproof78]

How can one say they believe in those values while stopping a mission to keep Romulans from cooking in a supernova? This wasn’t “well, we need to re-examine how and how much we can help in the wake of the Mars attack?”, this was “give it up entirely or we quit.”

Because fear makes people do irrational things. That doesn't mean they don't believe in them. It means that they were afraid of the consequences. In this instance, fear outweighed their values. If it were just one instance (the Mars attack) then I could see them doing the rescue with reduced resources. But, in the wake of the Dominion War, and Shinzon's attack no doubt impacted what resources they see as available. So, they gave in to fear.

It happens a lot more in Trek than we would like to believe.

 

[BillJ]

...and Shinzon's attack no doubt impacted what resources they see as available.

Shinzon never got beyond the Enterprise in Nemesis.

Allowing the fear of a small minority to drive policy is the anathema of a democratic government. It would be like us throwing up our hands in the late-1850’s and giving up on getting rid of slavery because the South was making noise about succession. Is the Federation Council going to buckle every time a couple worlds get together and threaten to leave over a policy decision?

 

[fireproof78]

Shinzon never got beyond the Enterprise in Nemesis.

Allowing the fear of a small minority to drive policy is the anathema of a democratic government. It would be like us throwing up our hands in the late-1850’s and giving up on getting rid of slavery because the South was making noise about succession. Is the Federation Council going to buckle every time a couple worlds get together and threaten to leave over a policy decision?

Ok. But, it happens.

And, I highly doubt that this is going to be standard operating procedure for the Council. I think the fact that we are discussing it makes it clear at how out of character it is. And I think that is the point.

 

[Crazyewok]

How can one say they believe in those values while stopping a mission to keep Romulans from cooking in a supernova? This wasn’t “well, we need to re-examine how and how much we can help in the wake of the Mars attack?”, this was “give it up entirely or we quit.”

The federation has left worlds to die and even sentient species to go extinct before.

Normaly under the "excuse" something something prime directive, something something not interfering with a species evolution.

Look at the TNG episode homeward.

 

[DarthTimon]

We've seen prejudice against Romulans before. Lt. Stiles displays it quite clearly in Balance of Terror. Admiral Noah Satie in TNG's Drumhead apparently held the ear of Starfleet Command in pursuing a 'trial' of Simon Tares, whose only transgression was to keep quiet that he was 1/4 Romulan (what's also telling is that he felt the need to conceal that).

There's clearly no love of Romulans, something that various events (like the Romulans originally refusing to join the Dominion War, and Shinzon's actions) would only reinforce. The idea of expending huge resources and effort to help them would not take long to dismantle, especially if something like an attack turned Federation interests inward.

 

[Arpy]

We’re ultimately talking about the deaths of a billion people because of concerns over “logistics.” I’m of the disposition that where there’s a will, there’s a way. They didn’t rise to the occasion.