Revisisting "Revisiting TOS"

[Warped9]

Back in 2011 I did a TOS rewatch thread given I hadn't seen many of the TOS episodes in several years. I rewatched the series in production order to get a sense of the series' progression as it evolved. Awhile ago in one of the other threads here someone reminded me of my rewtch and so out of curiosity I went back to look over it.

I ended up rereading the whole thing--all 58 ages. It was a little odd as well as interesting to read something I had written nine years ago--I know I wrote the words, but it often felt as if I were reading someone else's words. Of course, the ensuing discussions regarding each episode was quite interesting as well with others' perspectives along with whether and why they they agreed or disagreed with my view.

A big takeaway from the reread as well as the original rewatch was seeing how standout Season 1 really is as well as how Season 3, so often panned, is really a lot better than generally remembered or just perceived. Yes, Season 3 isn't as standout as Season 1 or even as Season 2, but looked at in entirety and on its own merits as well as compared to what came later in Trek then Season 3 was/is quite respectable. Season 3 impressed me with half of the season being good with even a handful of episodes being excellent, about a quarter of it being only fair and the remaining quarter of it being poor to bad. Thats not at all a bad batting average.

Prior to rewatching TOS some time earlier I had begun a TNG rewatch given I hadn't seen those episodes in several years either. At the time I was of a quite critical mindset regarding TNG (I figured I could tolerate maybe a quarter of the series and dismss the rest) yet decided to give the show another look to see if my opinion could have changed. Over the course of the rewatch I found about a third of TNG good-excellent, about a third of it fair and the remaining third poor-bad. That was a lot better than I had expected when starting the rewatch.

But what was interesting (to me) was comparing TOS' Season 3 batting avaerage to TNG. In no one season did TNG really beat TOS' Season 3 in terms of good-excellent episodes compared to poor-bad episodes. Even TNG's best seasons (which, for me, were Seasons 2-4) did they best TOS' Season 3. And none of TNG's seasons came close to equaling TOS' 1st and 2nd seasons in terms of good-excellent episodes.

For me the really subjective episodes were those I rated as fair or average for both series. The fair episodes were those that were watchable and had redeeming elements, but the overall result was just okay. If one ere inclined to favour a series then one might be forgiving and lump the fair rated episodes along with the good-excellent episodes. If one were inclined to be more crtical then the fair episodes could be lumped in with the poor-bad.

Rereading those reviews and ensuing discussions was quite interesting and for anyone who might be curious to take a look then here is the original thread which is, obviously, now locked given it's such an old thread: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/revisiting-star-trek-tos-tas.138580/


At some point I have an interest in rewatching TOS again only in stardate order (just to be different).

 

[Ssosmcin]

I keep trying to watch the entire series in order, but I tend to stop when it gets to a bland patch. I really need to power though and look with a more welcoming eye.

TNG: I went through the episode list on Netflix and just lost interest. The memories of the series for me are "when it was good it was outstanding, when it wasn't it was dull - it was often dull." I like my Star Trek to be more dramatic adventure than family soap opera.

 

[Warped9]

Rewatching a show can be a slog. I will say that when I rewatched TNG Seasons 5-7 there were some episodes that were rather trying to get through.

TOS was never boring even when it was poor or outright bad. When TNG was poor or bad it could be excruciating. Before my TNG rewatch I thought maybe a quarter of it would be okay, but I actually found a solid third of it to be good-excellent. Another third was just okay and the remaining third I could live without ever seeing it again. The third I thought was just okay are something I could easily pass on. But one day I just might do a rewatch again, but only of the shows I really liked.

 

[BillJ]

TOS was never boring even when it was poor or outright bad. When TNG was poor or bad it could be excruciating. Before my TNG rewatch I thought maybe a quarter of it would be okay, but I actually found a solid third of it to be good-excellent. Another third was just okay and the remaining third I could live without ever seeing it again. The third I thought was just okay are something I could easily pass on. But one day I just might do a rewatch again, but only of the shows I really liked.

The show that has surprising grown on me as I've gotten older is DS9.

 

[Armus]

I just rewatched the entire first season of TOS. The only shows I couldn't make it through were Shore Leave, The Return of The Archons, and The Alternative Factor. I realized I liked the first half of season one, the episodes produced by Rodenberry, more than the second half, which were produced by Gene Coon.

 

[BillJ]

...Shore Leave, The Return of The Archons...

I really like both of these episodes.

 

[Armus]

I really like both of these episodes.

Shore Leave is generally considered a good episode. Return Of The Archons does have a cool weird spookiness to it.

 

[Raptor_Fawr]

I agree with your sentiment, although I must disagree a little.

I would save 20-25 episodes out of TOS as "good enough to be rewatched multiple times" and the same goes for 65-70 episodes of TNG.

Percentage wise it looks like TOS has the upper hand but actually you are still watching more than twice the amount of episodes of TNG

 

[drt]

I love "Return of the Archons".

TOS was never boring even when it was poor or outright bad.

Yeah, the "bad" episodes are still entertaining, for instance "The Way to Eden" is still fun with the goofy space hippies and their music.

I also hear you about the third season. While the budget was obviously much lower, and maybe there weren't the same number of high quality episodes as the other two seasons, overall I dont think it was that big of a difference from the second. The latter half of the second season is pretty much a series of "planet of hats" episodes, at least most of the third season at least tried to have decent scifi concepts, even if the execution was sometimes lacking.

 

[Armus]

I love "Return of the Archons".


Yeah, the "bad" episodes are still entertaining, for instance "The Way to Eden" is still fun with the goofy space hippies and their music.

I also hear you about the third season. While the budget was obviously much lower, and maybe there weren't the same number of high quality episodes as the other two seasons, overall I dont think it was that big of a difference from the second. The latter half of the second season is pretty much a series of "planet of hats" episodes, at least most of the third season at least tried to have decent scifi concepts, even if the execution was sometimes lacking.

I like the good third season episodes more than the best of season two. There are a lot poor and forgettable episodes in season three but there are plenty of gems. The parallel earth shows were getting old and they wisely dropped them. Some of the cornier Star Trek humor was also jettisoned. Season three has some of my favorite incidental music of the series and I also liked the sleeker-looking uniforms.

The problem with season three was that there were poor stories like "And The Children Shall Lead" that never should have been green lighted in the first place.

Some episodes aren't hopelessly without merit, they almost make it to the decent, rewatchable camp. Shows like Is There Truth in Beauty? or Elaan Of Troyius.

I liked Spocks Brain, The Enterprise Incident, The Paradise Syndrome, Day Of The Dove, The Tholian Web, Plato's Stepchildren, Wink Of An Eye, The Empath, Whom Gods Destroy, Requiem For Methuselah, The Cloud Miners, The Savage Curtain, All Of Our Yesterdays, and The Turnabout Intruder.

 

[Winterwind]

My tastes follow the general trend, when looking at each season as a whole. S1 > S2 > S3 and I always watch TOS in production order.

Still, even in S3 I find a good deal to enjoy. With TNG, ha! I find I could put together maybe one good 25 episode season out of all seven. TNG is the weakest, least likeable of the lot for me.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I realized I liked the first half of season one, the episodes produced by Rodenberry, more than the second half, which were produced by Gene Coon.

That’s exactly it for me too. I can’t really put into words what it is, but once we get to the first season Coon episodes, the stories feel less exciting to me. Even though many of the stores are good to excellent, they don’t have that feel I like. I love the energy of the Roddenberry/Black episodes, but even high bar episodes like Devil in the Dark, Errand of Mercy and This Side of Paradise tend to be episodes I pass by.

Having said that, when I do a production order re-watch, I hit my first bump between Balance of Terror and The Galileo Seven. Those four tend to drag a bit for me. And I really don’t like Charlie X enough to sit through the cheesy singing scenes and watching Charlie hurt feelings. The episode does pick up in the back half very nicely though.

 

[StarCruiser]

The show that has surprising grown on me as I've gotten older is DS9.

Of the various series - it usually works out in this order for me:

1 - TOS
2 - DS9
3 - TNG
4 - ENT
5 - VOY

(Nope - none of the current stuff even registers as Trek for me...)

 

[Henoch]

As a Stardate geek myself, there is no "standard" viewing order since there are too many holes. I think it really doesn't add anything over production order, either. Stardate chronology makes a fun spreadsheet exercise applying a dozen rules to handle all the "oddities", but even then, I default to "script error" as the second-to-last rule (and then do my own retcon). Last rule is to have fun.

 

[Armus]

That’s exactly it for me too. I can’t really put into words what it is, but once we get to the first season Coon episodes, the stories feel less exciting to me. Even though many of the stores are good to excellent, they don’t have that feel I like. I love the energy of the Roddenberry/Black episodes, but even high bar episodes like Devil in the Dark, Errand of Mercy and This Side of Paradise tend to be episodes I pass by.

Having said that, when I do a production order re-watch, I hit my first bump between Balance of Terror and The Galileo Seven. Those four tend to drag a bit for me. And I really don’t like Charlie X enough to sit through the cheesy singing scenes and watching Charlie hurt feelings. The episode does pick up in the back half very nicely though.

I think someone on here said the earlier episodes are gritty and fall into the space western genre. To me the early episodes have a little more heart and are more character driven. Shows like The Enemy Within, Mudd's Women, The Menagerie, and The Conscience Of The King are amongst my favorite episodes. The Coon-produced episodes are fun well-written adventures but some of the shows feel a little cartoonish.

 

[Poltargyst]

I thought TNG was pretty mediocre throughout. There's really only a handful of episodes I would say were particularly good. I think TOS and DS9 are far superior.

 

[Mudd]

There are more first-rate episodes in the first season of TOS than in all the other series combined.

Which is of course the reason that there got to be other series.

 

[Poltargyst]

Of the various series - it usually works out in this order for me:

1 - TOS
2 - DS9
3 - TNG
4 - ENT
5 - VOY

(Nope - none of the current stuff even registers as Trek for me...)

I go with

1. TOS
1a. DS9
3. ENT
4. DISC
5. Picard
6. TNG
7. VOY

 

[Warped9]

Seasonal comparisons (based on how I rated them).

Good to Excellent - TNG never really gets close to TOS in terms of batting average here.
TNG Season 1 = 16% (4 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 40.9% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 42.3% (11 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 42.3% (11 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 15.3% (4 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 82.7% (24 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 61.5% (16 episodes)
TOS Season 3 = 50% (12 episodes)

Fair - TNG picks up here where it loses in the better ratings. Whether that's win or lose is a matter of perspective. The closest equivalent is TNG's Season 4 with TOS' Seasons 2 and 3. In terms of numbers in any given season then it's pretty damned close.
TNG Season 1 = 36% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 22.7% (5 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 26.9% (7 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 17.2% (5 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 26.9% (7 episodes)
TOS Season 3 = 25% (6 episodes)

Poor to Bad - The closest comparison is TNG's Season 3 with TOS' Season 3, but throughout the rest TNG has a poorer batting average.
TNG Season 1 = 48% (12 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 36.3% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 26.9% (7 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 50% (13 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 0% (0 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 11.5% (3 episodes)
TOS Season 3 = 25% (6 episodes

Of course, one can argue that TNG ran longer than TOS and so the odds for more Fair-Poor-Bad episodes was likely greater. But even if you compare only the first three or four seasons of TNG with TOS then TOS still has a better batting average.


Series comparisons:
Good to Excellent - TNG produced more than twice as many episodes as TOS and yet the difference in the number of quality episodes is negligible.
TNG = 31.4% (56 episodes)
TOS = 65.8% (52 episodes)

Fair - With a longer production run it's understandable TNG would have greater odds for putting out more average episodes.
TNG = 31.4% (56 episodes)
TOS = 22.7% (18 episodes)

Poor to Bad - TNG had more than twice as many episodes and more than three times as many disappointments.
TNG = 37% (66 episodes)
TOS = 11.3% (9 episodes)


TOS certainly doesn't follow the "one third" results of my TNG revisit where I found about one third of the episodes Good-Excellent, one third Fair and one third Poor-Bad. For TOS I find nearly two thirds of the series to be Good-Excellent, a bit less than a quarter of it Fair and a little more than a tenth of it to be Poor-Bad.

 

[drt]

That’s exactly it for me too. I can’t really put into words what it is, but once we get to the first season Coon episodes, the stories feel less exciting to me. Even though many of the stores are good to excellent, they don’t have that feel I like. I love the energy of the Roddenberry/Black episodes, but even high bar episodes like Devil in the Dark, Errand of Mercy and This Side of Paradise tend to be episodes I pass by.

I'm in a similar boat. I'd always attributed it to a fondness for the early series weirdness when they were still figuring things out, but maybe the determining factor was that they were Roddenberry produced.

I also find myself in a similar position with TNG. While I recognize intellectually that the third/fourth seasons are of better quality, I have a distinct nostalgia love for the first and second seasons.