Yeah, it gets pretty tiresome. It is funny how the same people who decry any criticism towards the new shows are so willing to mock the things many people found compelling in the old shows.
Picard: "Just Like Other Sci-Fi"
- Thread starter Danny99
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"I lot" certainly didn't think that season 1 had flaws that needed to be fixed by season 2 and I don't think season 2 did that. if anything I critizised season 2 a lot for 'giving in' to stupid fan demand. I want my purple bald Klingons, dammit. Bring them back! Also: Subtitles. I can read, no need for them to speak English
My Bingo card is already full, thank you
Not sure if this adds much to the discussion but all this recent talk of "Gene's vision" has made me think about what he wanted to see in Star Trek.
To me Gene's vision is embodied in this quote from memory alpha where he praises the episode The Devil In The Dark.
"The Horta suddenly became understandable […] It wasn't just a monster–it was someone. And the audience could put themselves in the place of the Horta… identify… feel! That's what drama is all about. And that's it's importance, too… if you can learn to feel for a Horta, you may also be learning to understand and feel for other Humans of different colors, ways, and beliefs."
Star Trek isn't realistic even when it is dark. It is after all a science fiction series playing in the far future and is not depicting the here and now or a past historical event. It is all pure imagination. And series which are not bound by reality like all series with a heavy science fiction or fantasy focus can in my opinion do whatever they want which means also showing the human race having learned from past mistakes and being better than they are now. That doesn't make them less worthwhile viewing than a more pessimistic series.
How can Section-31 be completely unknown when it was established in DS-9 (where it first appeared) that its creation was part of the Federation Charter?
Their is actually 3 versions of Gene's vision. You had the one from TOS which seems to be mostly be about the world which I think tended to be your general liberal vision of that time period though with a little less hippie in it. Racism is bad and people work together from all nations and space exploration has opened up humanity to many interesting and new things.
TNG was then pure socialist utopia were all of people's problems were solved in terms both necessities such as everyone has access to food and shelter, mental problems from human greed to anti-social behavior. Humanity was about exploring ones own mind and basically embracing learning. Learning new things was what all humans craved.
Then you get the Berman take on the TNG vision which means that most of those problems have gone away but they still sort of exist on the fringes of the human experience. You might get angry for example but you just don't get petty about it. Plus humans became less about learning and more about exploring their own creativity. Everyone on TNG all of sudden became a artist. Riker played his trombone,Crsuher taught acting,Data did everything from acting to painting to playing music. Worf taught Klingon exercise etc.
Jason
TNG was then pure socialist utopia were all of people's problems were solved in terms both necessities such as everyone has access to food and shelter, mental problems from human greed to anti-social behavior. Humanity was about exploring ones own mind and basically embracing learning. Learning new things was what all humans craved.
Then you get the Berman take on the TNG vision which means that most of those problems have gone away but they still sort of exist on the fringes of the human experience. You might get angry for example but you just don't get petty about it. Plus humans became less about learning and more about exploring their own creativity. Everyone on TNG all of sudden became a artist. Riker played his trombone,Crsuher taught acting,Data did everything from acting to painting to playing music. Worf taught Klingon exercise etc.
Jason
I thought the Mayweather had something to do with that Boxing Rebellion.
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But the more realistic they are in that depiction, the more useful they are. Just having magically heroic characters doing magically heroic things is less useful than showing realistic characters daring to be just as heroic and showing us how they managed to accomplish it. It’s not about showing antiheroes, just fleshed out ones.
I’ve gotten the sense that despite returning to prewar uniforms, Starfleet and the Federation as a whole isn’t what it once was and is masking their true state of affairs. The old uniforms came back to remind them of simpler times when they explored the galaxy.
Starfleet and the Federation being a let down to many characters in PIC so far is being driven into the viewers minds for a reason. There are serious underlying flaws with the Federation that haven’t come out yet that go beyond the usual corrupt admirals seen through the franchise.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starfleet_Charter
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Section_31
That is not the same as saying: The Federation should found a super secret organization which is not accountable to anyone and can do whatever they want. I would say it means more that in rare circumstances of an extraordinary threat that a Starfleet officer is allowerd to bend the rules without getting discharged at once. I think that article was written with laws like self-defense or defense against others in mind which both can justify things which are normally forbidden like killing someone. S31 just misused it to justify their unlawful and unauthorized behaviour to themselves.
So the existence of article 12, section 31 really doesn't have to mean that the knowledge of the S31 organization was widespread in the Federtion and Starfleet. In contrast to S31 from DIS they tried way more too be clandestine.
Chill. It's a running gag about a Hater Bingo Card that somebody came up with. "Gene's Vision" is one of the squares.
I can feel for the guy who had to crawl around under that rug.
That doesn't mean it always was.
You complain about ad hominems and derailment, then come up with a strawman like that in the very next paragraph?
It may be a thing, but it is a thing which is not easily defined in a consistent manner based on what was on screen. Even under his own control, let alone the control of others, there were bad humans and awful things happened. Its invocation naturally provokes an eyeroll given it’s usually cited for a shallow argument, as it has been here.
Funny you should cite Enterprise as the last Trek to demonstrate such a vision, incidentally - I distinctly recall deep-seated xenophobia among humans, not to mention our own hero Archer engaging in torture and piracy.
We have consistently seen in Trek that in desperate times, humans can turn very quickly.
So you think that all TOS characters were less useful than the PIC characters? Personally I judge usefulness of fictional characters based on their entertainment value. If I don't like watching them for whatever reasons I wish they were written out or at least hope for better characterization in the future.
Though the PIC characters are not so much the problem. Sure they have flaws, but most of them are good at their core and do have a noble goal. It is more the setting and world they live in which I don't like. If you put the TOS or TNG crew in their place I would still think the future depicted in PIC was depressive and not as nice as I wish it would be in a Star Trek series. For example you can also have heroic characters in war movies. They would still not be something I would like to watch when I am in the mood for something positive and hopeful.
Yes it has. And frankly, it isn't likely to change back anytime soon because a great number of people like the new DNA sequencing, so get on board or you go home, metaphorically.
Nor were they really hiding in DS9. There were on the fringes, neither being confirmed nor denined. Which means that someone at the Federation and Starfleet leadership level (like Admiral Ross did) would be aware.How much they know is a different story.
Ok, but we have seen Starfleet do morally questionable things before, as well as the Federation. This isn't new territory for Trek, at all, including a Federation adviser who glorified the Nazis as an efficient government ("Patterns of Force.").
I agree that their actions are morally questionable. I just think it fits with what we have seen before. Also, the Klingon War had torn in to the Federation. Even if we didn't see it we are told that it is bad.
Georgiou is someone that is Burnham's albatross. Like her mutiny she has to recognize that her choices have long term repercussions. That's part of the story.
But, we don't know who is accepting of it. This is an assumption.
The tardigrade was handled in typical Star Trek fashion, so again, I don't see why this is being used as a broad stroke brush on the Federation and Starfleet as a whole.
He made a career of doing that and other costume work. I think he was the Mugato, too.
Gene's vision summed up without the fan revisionism.
So you wouldn't like a future 'Starfleet Academy' or 'Young Picard' Trek-spinoff screened by CW then??
Second this. Many events have shaped the Trek-verse from 2364 (beginning of TNG) and 2399, many of them are dark and somber for the Federation and anyone who went through them (including Picard). The Borg Invasion, the Dominion War, the Shinzon Incursion, the Synth Attack, and lastly the Hobus Supernova.
All are dark events that killed tens of thousands of Starfleet officers and Federation citizens. The Dominion War and the Hobus Supernova likely killed tens of millions people. Anyone who complained that 'Picard' is not the sunny, optimistic and (almost) entirely non-violent TNG have completely forgot about the context by which it is based on. Once you've understand what Picard, Seven, Riker, and the other characters have gone through during these three-plus decades, then you've understand why the tone of the series is so completely different from TNG (and TOS).
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