Spoilers Everyday life on earth

[Longinus]

Pretty much...my ancestors were Irish immigrants who lived a quiet life in Ohio raising cows and farming grain until the Civil War after which they moved west.

'We' there was the humanity as a whole. I am pretty sure that none of my direct ancestors had slaves, and chances of them participating in with burning remains rather slim as well. But that was not the point, it was about remembering and learning from the mistakes of the past.

 

[fireproof78]

Pretty much...my ancestors were Irish immigrants who lived a quiet life in Ohio raising cows and farming grain until the Civil War after which they moved west.

Indeed.

My larger frustration is the elitism that comes in 24th century humans, as told to us by the writers.

 

[Longinus]

I think you'll find that the "basic flaws of greed/etc" being overcome story premise died in S1/S2 of TNG and was completely in the grave by S3.

Coincidentally around the same time that Gene himself went into the grave

Then certainly you can mention several post third season episodes that dealt with the concept of human greed for material possessions.

 

[fireproof78]

And they do! As often as great tragedies and follies of the past are lamented, are pioneers, innovators and luminaries of the past lauded.

'We' there was the humanity as a whole. I am pretty sure that none of my direct ancestors had slaves, and chances of them participating in with burning remains rather slim as well. But that was not the point, it was about remembering and learning from the mistakes of the past.

I agree with learning from the mistakes from the past. The danger, to my mind, is regarding them as irredeemable and savage, which was more my point and why I quoted Riker. He sees nothing redeemable about the 21st century humans they take aboard.

Now, that's obviously not all that happens in TNG, and certainly we see them lauding pioneers of learning and such as the show wound on. However, my concern remains that the attitude of looking down upon past humans (in Trek terms current humans) will inhibit the optimism and lead to elitist attitudes, i.e. we need to educate the ignorant savages.

 

[Racefuel]

Then certainly you can mention several post third season episodes that dealt with the concept of human greed for material possessions.

3X08 "The Price"-The Federation competing in a bidding war for control of the Barzan Wormhole for commerce reasons

2X09- "The Measure of a Man"- Maddox viewing Data as a possession and wanting to more or less own him

1X01-Encounter at Farpoint- Crusher wanted an entire bolt of fabric from a vendor on Farpoint, and wanted it charged to her account on the Enterprise

3X19-"Captain's Holiday"-Picard "purchased" a Horga'hn on Risa.

7X21-"Firstborn" Riker mentions having latinum to Quark and bribes Quark with it.

Now are these outright examples of greed? Perhaps not...but they do illustrate the desire for possessions and control/acquisition of "things".



And that's just TNG...shall I go into DS9 and Voyager?

 

[Paul Weaver]

Now are these outright examples of greed? Perhaps not...but they do illustrate the desire for possessions and control/acquisition of "things".

They don't illustrate how possessions and material needs are the driving force behind people's lives

Indeed even today, many people do not have a driving force of possessions and material needs

 

[Racefuel]

They don't illustrate how possessions and material needs are the driving force behind people's lives

Indeed even today, many people do not have a driving force of possessions and material needs

They most certainly do. They demonstrate an intrinsic need for humans to possess things, to have them, to own them. It demonstrates the need for humans to control them, and speaks to the fundamental truth of humanity that we wish to control things.

In particular there's a great deal of aspects in DS9 dealing with the realities of the economy of the 24th Century and the need of humanity/the Federation to control resources, trade routes, financial institutions and such.

 

[Racefuel]

I mean...why didn't Crusher simply scan the pattern of that fabric with her tricorder, go to the replicator center aboard the Enterprise and replicate an entire bolt on her own...rather than charging an account..of...what?

 

[BillJ]

But greed is a fundamental aspect of humanity, as is the desire to acquire..things.

So is us killing each other. That is probably the most fundamental aspects of humanity. We kill each other a lot, for often trivial reasons and without remorse or regret.

I am saying it’s fundamentally dishonest and boring to say that Star Trek is about exploring the human condition, among others, yet try and eliminate fundamental aspects of humanity and making humans effectively perfect is both lazy and boring

Boring is a mileage may vary type of deal, because I found a lot of TNG to be very good, and, in all honesty, we wouldn't be here with a new show built off of it twenty years later if it was boring.

Lazy? It was likely far harder to come up with workable scripts under the edicts of Roddenberry.

TNG was a noble experiment, but one that wasn't going to be sustainable forever.

 

[BillJ]

I mean...why didn't Crusher simply scan the pattern of that fabric with her tricorder, go to the replicator center aboard the Enterprise and replicate an entire bolt on her own...rather than charging an account..of...what?

IP theft. It was obviously a unique pattern, which was why she wanted it. If you're going to pay for it, why not just get the original?

 

[Racefuel]

IP theft. It was obviously a unique pattern, which was why she wanted it. If you're going to pay for it, why not just get the original?

Okay, but it still doesn't explain how she intends to pay for it if she comes from a society without money

 

[BillJ]

Okay, but it still doesn't explain how she intends to pay for it if she comes from a society without money

I don't think an economy without money is practical on pretty much any level, but...

Farpoint wasn't yet a Federation installation. So, in order to do business with them, Starfleet officers are likely given some kind of stipend that allows them to interact economically with non-Federation members.

 

[Longinus]

Okay, but it still doesn't explain how she intends to pay for it if she comes from a society without money

I already explained it ages ago in this same thread. That Federation doesn't use money intrernally doesn't mean the do not have means to trade with money-based societies.

 

[XCV330]

Property rights exist in the TNG and post-TNG star trek universe. That is beyond dispute. The Picard family has handed down its chateau and vineyards for generations (going back at least into 2256, as Captain Georgiou had a bottle of Chateau Picard wine in her quarters). The Siskos have owned their restaurant and home in New Orleans. Barclay had/has a snazzy condo overlooking downtown San Francisco, and you can't tell me that is an area in low demand.

There doesn't seem to be some ability for anyone to just come and announce they want to share and move right in. There clearly is an economy, as well as law applying to property rights. While money and acquisitions may not be the primary driver, clearly it exists. I maintain their currency's FIAT is more some sort of social based thing, a basic income with further rewards for service. That guy cleaning tables in 10 Forward may not be wearing a uniform but he might be earning enough to build himself a sweet space yacht when he gets home. We just don't know enough about the universe to get all the details down perfectly.

 

[BillJ]

That Federation doesn't use money intrernally...

I think that while it isn't "money" they still have elements that they trade for goods and services. Sisko talks about running out of transporter credits to go home while at Starfleet Academy.

There has to be some kind of ledger based on who you are and what station in life you are at.

 

[Racefuel]

Property rights exist in the TNG and post-TNG star trek universe. That is beyond dispute. The Picard family has handed down its chateau and vineyards for generations (going back at least into 2256, as Captain Georgiou had a bottle of Chateau Picard wine in her quarters). The Siskos have owned their restaurant and home in New Orleans. Barclay had/has a snazzy condo overlooking downtown San Francisco, and you can't tell me that is an area in low demand.

There doesn't seem to be some ability for anyone to just come and announce they want to share and move right in. There clearly is an economy, as well as law applying to property rights. While money and acquisitions may not be the primary driver, clearly it exists. I maintain their currency's FIAT is more some sort of social based thing, a basic income with further rewards for service. That guy cleaning tables in 10 Forward may not be wearing a uniform but he might be earning enough to build himself a sweet space yacht when he gets home. We just don't know enough about the universe to get all the details down perfectly.

Well and Kirk talks about selling his house in Generations when in the Nexus with Picard, Scotty talks about buying a boat in TUC, Jake talks about selling his first book in DS9, etc.

Obviously an economy exists, as does property rights, possessions and presumably scarcity.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

If you don't believe that negative aspects of the human nature can be overcome then you ultimately do not believe in the premise of Star Trek.

No I'm afraid I don't. I don't believe that all earth citizens are perfect now. That's a fantasy Gene created because it was the sixties and he tapped into the youth culture.
That earth eliminates abject poverty with endless free energy and replicated everything and all religion is gone from earth and nobody cheats on their spouse is Roddenberrys fantasy world.
Doesn't Uhura buy the Tribble with credits? Isn't that acquisitive? Just a little?

 

[BillJ]

No I'm afraid I don't. I don't believe that all earth citizens are perfect now. That's a fantasy Gene created because it was the sixties and he tapped into the youth culture.
That earth eliminates abject poverty with endless free energy and replicated everything and all religion is gone from earth and nobody cheats on their spouse is Roddenberrys fantasy world.
Doesn't Uhura buy the Tribble with credits? Isn't that acquisitive? Just a little?

You're mistaken, the stuff you take offense to, didn't really start until the 1980's.

 

[XCV330]

Well and Kirk talks about selling his house in Generations when in the Nexus with Picard, Scotty talks about buying a boat in TUC, Jake talks about selling his first book in DS9, etc.

Obviously an economy exists, as does property rights, possessions and presumably scarcity.

to add to that, other examples of this private economy

George Kirk's corvette. Should have passed to his children but was taken by his widow's new husband in the Kelvin verse.

James Kirk's hubless motorcycle. (given to a shipyard worker)

Ash Tyler had a sailboat. He mentioned it though it wasn't obviously seen.

There is a means to inherit things, as Georgiou willed a previous antique telescope to Burnham, who than gave it to Saru.

Budweiser still makes beer in the Kelvin Verse, so at some point at least, they did in Prime.

Earth Cargo Service: the boomers weren't doing their dangerous trade altruistically

Vulcans have private property, including homes, personal items, and pets.

Baron Grimes apparently owns an arms dealing empire and somehow acquired a title of minor nobility.

Harry Mudd owned a moon at some point and gave it to Stella Grimes.

 

[BillJ]

Earth Cargo Service: the boomers weren't doing their dangerous trade altruistically

I imagine that would be extended to cargo haulers across the entirety of the Trek timeline. Whether working within Federation space or not.