Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[Leto_II]

New Frontier's internal continuity is largely incompatible with the wider litverse, anyway. And the Romulan supernova would have a distinct effect on Sector 221-G, seeing as it's at least near the Neutral Zone.

Though, who knows if Peter David is game for writing more NF novels, though.

Would be amazing if PAD were to write at least one New Frontier novel set in the post-supernova/Picard continuity. How many small children must I sacrifice on the altar in my basement to make this happen? Seriously, somebody give me a number. I own a leather apron.

 

[Jedi Ben]

Catching up:

re: It was never canon

No, it wasn't and I quite liked that honesty in comparison to some others. But what the last 20-year run demonstrated is, in the absence of anything on TV or film, you can have continuity without canon. The authors wrote as if the other stories mattered and it was a big, big success for a niche product.

I don't think people here are objecting to the fact that the new series require changes but rather that, since it was such a long run, it's in Pocket Books interest, while they commission the new stuff to do a book or two that wraps up the old stuff. This generally doesn't happen, stuff is just left hanging inelegantly and it's an avoidable mess.

re: Fan vs Consumer Outlook

This always seems to come up whenever a reboot happens, cue 'they (the company) owe you nothing, you can't complain'. Actually, as paying consumers, yes you can and, from a consumer viewpoint, if you don't like what you see, you walk away and put your money where your mouth is. Fans? Fans really don't like doing that, they will if they have to but it's not the first option - from a commercial viewpoint, these individuals will keep spending money on your products, even if they have disagreements over it.

Advocating fans become consumers isn't that wise a path to take. Similarly the corporate notion that fans are like employees and can be replaced, that can really unbalance things.

 

[The Wormhole]

Actually, for the Doctor Who novels it was more than eleven a year; more like twenty-two. Eleven featuring the then current Doctor and eleven featuring past Doctors.

Oh, is that how it went? I thought they alternated every month, one month Current Doctor, next month Past Doctor and so on in that order.

For some reason that I’ve never understood, no Doctor Who novels were published in December.

I would guess they took into account that everyone spending enough money in December on Christmas shopping and decided to ease their financial burden by not having a Doctor Who novel for them to buy. Plus, between shopping and holiday festivities, most people probably wouldn't have much of a chance to read it in December. Back a few years ago when monthly DVD releases of Doctor Who classic era serials were a thing, I noticed they also took December off, presumably for similar reasons.

I know I pretty much end up putting my life on hold in December, despite the fact that I just get everyone gift cards I can buy at the grocery store and don't spend any meaningful time with my family. I can only imagine this magnifies for those who do put an effort into their shopping and do spend time with their families.

 

[Deano2099]

I would think if people are big enough Trekkies to buy the books, they're probably going to watch Picard and Discovery and if they like them buy their books to.

Maybe I'm biased towards my own perspective and you're right. But speaking just for myself, I was a Trekkie 15 years ago. I was buying and reading the novels then. I've continued to do so. By the time the new films came out, I didn't even bother to go to the cinema to see them. Eventually caught them on some streaming platform (except for the third). I've never rewatched Trek in that 15 years (an abortive attempt to try with DS9 ended about halfway through season 1). I've watched Discovery, though wasn't eagerly awaiting it's airing every week. Likewise I will watch Picard. I've not picked up the Disco novels. Don't know about the Picard one yet.
But I have continued to pick up the books. Still a bit behind but I've remained a fan of the litverse while my interest in Trek in general has waned. I would imagine I'm far from the only one, which is what was behind my whole "the litverse is its own thing" comment. But yeah it's possible I'm just the outlier here.

 

[Tosk]

I would imagine I'm far from the only one

I'm sure you're not the only one, but I can't imagine the number of Trekkies that read the novels but don't watch any of the shows/movies is very high.

 

[Brendan Moody]

Oh, is that how it went? I thought they alternated every month, one month Current Doctor, next month Past Doctor and so on in that order.

They shifted to an alternating schedule in October 2002, but before that it had been a past Doctor book and a current Doctor book each month (except, for the BBC lines, in December) since September 1994.

 

[Damian]

New Frontier's internal continuity is largely incompatible with the wider litverse, anyway. And the Romulan supernova would have a distinct effect on Sector 221-G, seeing as it's at least near the Neutral Zone.

Though, who knows if Peter David is game for writing more NF novels, though.

Yes, New Frontier is probably one 24th century series that could likely continue with minimal adjustments. In theory it takes place in the same universe as the wider 24th century litverse, but there are very few links between the two, and some things that are probably incompatible (at least without some creative storytelling).

There could probably be new NF books that pick up where "The Returned" left off with minimal changes and probably because of where the stories take place have little chance of being contradicted by Picard. As long as they don't stretch it beyond the existing NF stories/characters too much (i.e. reference someone like Admiral Akaar for instance).

I believe Peter David was one of those, like KRAD, I believe, who would have written more Star Trek books but just haven't gotten a call basically. Though Peter David was able to write "The Returned" to conclude the D'muyrj storyline (while adding some others).

Now, has PD moved on at this point? Is he even interested in writing future Star Trek novels? And, in theory, they could have someone else write NF novels. PD himself has been clear and we all know he doesn't own NF, anyone could write a NF novel basically. Though I doubt we'd ever see that outside short stories like they've done in the past.

And honestly, I don't see S&S resurrecting NF. Like TNG, DS9 and some of the other series it seems there time has passed. S&S will want to focus solely on current show tie-ins and original series novels. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised they commissioned a movie era book with Christopher's upcoming book that takes place after TMP.

 

[Leto_II]

And honestly, I don't see S&S resurrecting NF. Like TNG, DS9 and some of the other series it seems there time has passed. S&S will want to focus solely on current show tie-ins and original series novels. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised they commissioned a movie era book with Christopher's upcoming book that takes place after TMP.

TOS-era books (both 5YM and movie-era) are S&S's biggest evergreen-sellers even decades later due to Kirk and his crew, so they're certainly fine with greenlighting novels like Christopher's upcoming one (and ones like Greg Cox's Foul Deeds Will Rise, etc.).

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm sure you're not the only one, but I can't imagine the number of Trekkies that read the novels but don't watch any of the shows/movies is very high.

Indeed, and when you consider Trek XI was one of the most profitable Trek movies period, Disco is one of the top viewed shows on CBS All Access and Picard is breaking records for streaming TV in general, there's clearly a decent percentage of Trek fandom watching the new shows and movies.

 

[Damian]

TOS-era books (both 5YM and movie-era) are S&S's biggest evergreen-sellers even decades later due to Kirk and his crew, so they're certainly fine with greenlighting novels like Christopher's upcoming one (and ones like Greg Cox's Foul Deeds Will Rise, etc.).

Yeah, I guess it probably doesn't matter as long as it's the original series crew. The time period is probably not as important. I was pleasantly surprised. I always loved movie era books. I loved "Foul Deeds..." because it took place between V and VI, an era that only has a handful of novels written about it (and it was a good story too--I liked how Greg foreshadowed VI a bit as well).

 

[Deano2099]

Indeed, and when you consider Trek XI was one of the most profitable Trek movies period, Disco is one of the top viewed shows on CBS All Access and Picard is breaking records for streaming TV in general, there's clearly a decent percentage of Trek fandom watching the new shows and movies.

I think watching them and "into them enough to buy tie-in books" is different though. I'm still watching them, but I'm not interested in anything more than that: I'm not reading tie-ins, I'm not debating it on the internet with folk, I'm not reading the news sites for cast interviews. It's just a show I watch among many others. Just like the litverse is a book series I read. It's something I got into because I was an obsessed fan way back, but something I stuck with because I enjoyed the characters and the writing. But at this point, it's its own thing, so distinct from any of the Trek on TV, they're barely connected to me. And the sort of storytelling that tie-in books to currently airing shows will necessitate is very much the exact opposite of what it does. So I won't just move over to buying the tie-ins, I'll just stop. Or rather, I'll buy and read other books instead.

I don't think that'll be uncommon.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yeah, I guess it probably doesn't matter as long as it's the original series crew. The time period is probably not as important. I was pleasantly surprised. I always loved movie era books. I loved "Foul Deeds..." because it took place between V and VI, an era that only has a handful of novels written about it (and it was a good story too--I liked how Greg foreshadowed VI a bit as well).

Thanks! Have you read "Miasma"? That's a movie-era ebook I wrote a few years back.

To be honest, I flirted with setting "The Antares Maelstrom" then as well, but ended up deciding that it was more a 5YM story instead.

 

[iarann]

I think watching them and "into them enough to buy tie-in books" is different though. I'm still watching them, but I'm not interested in anything more than that: I'm not reading tie-ins, I'm not debating it on the internet with folk, I'm not reading the news sites for cast interviews. It's just a show I watch among many others. Just like the litverse is a book series I read. It's something I got into because I was an obsessed fan way back, but something I stuck with because I enjoyed the characters and the writing. But at this point, it's its own thing, so distinct from any of the Trek on TV, they're barely connected to me. And the sort of storytelling that tie-in books to currently airing shows will necessitate is very much the exact opposite of what it does. So I won't just move over to buying the tie-ins, I'll just stop. Or rather, I'll buy and read other books instead.

I don't think that'll be uncommon.

While I think readers of the Litverse stuff not moving on to the new tie-ins won't be uncommon, I think the rest of your story is.

I don't have a fan wide survey to back this, but based on what I have seen in this forum, youtube comment sections, and reddit, I think the numbers of readers of Star Trek novels that are not Star Trek fans is a fairly small percentage.

The reason many people are not going to read the new tie-in novels is because they are not interested in the new series; the "Not My Trek" people which happen after every new series is launched. They are usually still Star Trek fans, just fans of TNG or DS9 or TOS or whatever and not the newer stuff, and will still be fairly plugged in and knowledgeable about the old. I think the number of people who are no longer fans of say TNG or DS9 but still read the novels of those respective series would be rare.

All of that said, the fact of the matter is these tie-in products exist primarily as a means to sell the series they are based on, so the focus is always going to be on maximizing that potential. We are lucky that the last 20+ years Pocket Books has also gotten us authors who care enough about the franchise to keep the quality so high, but at the end of the day they are going to direct those efforts primarily to the series currently airing to continue to build up fans for those series. This has been the case every time a new series has launched, and it's not different now. I think what people have said is likely to hold accurate, we will get a couple of books each for Discovery, Picard, and Section 31, and a couple of books for TOS to hold everything up. With Picard being one of the series, maybe we'll get a TNG novel here or there in the same style of the TOS novels, or perhaps when important anniversaries hit, but I think the efforts are going to be tie-in media that have current media to tie in with.

 

[Damian]

Thanks! Have you read "Miasma"? That's a movie-era ebook I wrote a few years back.

To be honest, I flirted with setting "The Antares Maelstrom" as well, but ended up deciding that it was more a 5YM story instead.

Yeah, I've read most of the e-book only books (except for the Corp of Engineers stories--someday I'll get to those). I liked that story as well. I remember wondering if it would conflict with the Excelsior novel "Forged in Fire" which had Sulu leaving the Enterprise at the end of 2289 since Miasma was only a year or so before (that is, would Sulu still be on the Enterprise in Miasma)--but I didn't see any conflicts, or at least major ones.

I know, I'm weird. I look for stuff like that. I did the same with Christopher's "The Captain's Oath" and Michael Jan Friedman's "My Brother's Keeper" since I enjoyed both stories of Kirk's early career and they had a similar feel to them. And they're not totally incompatible I found. You could probably shoehorn most of Kirk's pre-Captain career described in MBK with TCO's universe without too much trouble. After taking command of the Enterprise that would be more problematic. But I'm getting off topic.

Miasma was a good story though. Being a short story it was fast paced. And as a horror movie fan I liked the scary creatures on the planet. I wish there were more post TFF novels and books. I don't recall, are there any pre-TUC novels that actually take place AFTER Sulu leaves the Enterprise on the Enterprise-A (other than little bits of other stories)? There's about what, 2-3 years in there I guess, using Forged in Fire's 2289 as the year he left the Enterprise?

 

[David Weller]

While I think readers of the Litverse stuff not moving on to the new tie-ins won't be uncommon, I think the rest of your story is.

I don't have a fan wide survey to back this, but based on what I have seen in this forum, youtube comment sections, and reddit, I think the numbers of readers of Star Trek novels that are not Star Trek fans is a fairly small percentage.

The reason many people are not going to read the new tie-in novels is because they are not interested in the new series; the "Not My Trek" people which happen after every new series is launched. They are usually still Star Trek fans, just fans of TNG or DS9 or TOS or whatever and not the newer stuff, and will still be fairly plugged in and knowledgeable about the old. I think the number of people who are no longer fans of say TNG or DS9 but still read the novels of those respective series would be rare.

All of that said, the fact of the matter is these tie-in products exist primarily as a means to sell the series they are based on, so the focus is always going to be on maximizing that potential. We are lucky that the last 20+ years Pocket Books has also gotten us authors who care enough about the franchise to keep the quality so high, but at the end of the day they are going to direct those efforts primarily to the series currently airing to continue to build up fans for those series. This has been the case every time a new series has launched, and it's not different now. I think what people have said is likely to hold accurate, we will get a couple of books each for Discovery, Picard, and Section 31, and a couple of books for TOS to hold everything up. With Picard being one of the series, maybe we'll get a TNG novel here or there in the same style of the TOS novels, or perhaps when important anniversaries hit, but I think the efforts are going to be tie-in media that have current media to tie in with.

I guess I’m in the minority here.

About four years ago, I finished Kevin J Anderson’s Saga of Seven Suns.

I then posted on Twitter could anyone recommend as good space based SF series. Something like Star Trek I said.

Then I realised I had answered my own question - extensive back catalogue and, at the time, a new novel every month.

I had watched some Trek - all of TOS and TNG but only a bit of DS9, Voyager and Enterprise. But I wouldn’t call myself a Trekkie.

Whilst I’ve read the Discovery novels, I’ve not got over excited about the tv series. I’ve ordered Una’s Picard novel but not sure if I will watch the series.

 

[Leto_II]

Thanks! Have you read "Miasma"? That's a movie-era ebook I wrote a few years back.

To be honest, I flirted with setting "The Antares Maelstrom" as well, but ended up deciding that it was more a 5YM story instead.

Hope you'll consider doing another Enterprise-A story again at some point down the road, Greg -- that's probably my favorite TOS era, due to where the characters are at that point in their lives (older and wiser, etc.), and you do an excellent job contrasting the 5YM-era crew with their later movie-era selves.

Miasma was a good story though. Being a short story it was fast paced. And as a horror movie fan I liked the scary creatures on the planet. I wish there were more post TFF novels and books. I don't recall, are there any pre-TUC novels that actually take place AFTER Sulu leaves the Enterprise on the Enterprise-A (other than little bits of other stories)? There's about what, 2-3 years in there I guess, using Forged in Fire's 2289 as the year he left the Enterprise?

Not really, other than I think The Captain's Table: War Dragons and the Mere Anarchy novella The Blood-Dimmed Tide (and even a portion of War Dragons is a flashback-section set just after "Where No Man Has Gone Before"). The vast majority of post-Sulu stories set during those pre-TUC years are covered mostly by the second DC Comics series, from issue #35 onwards (not including the last several issues, which were 5YM tales).

The story "Bloodline" (from the Wildstorm Star Trek Special one-shot) is also a post-Sulu Enterprise-A story, set in 2292, about a year before the events of TUC.

 

[KRAD]

Just to remind folks that a tie-in novel reaches less than 10% of the audience that a TV show or movie reaches. Books sell in the tens to hundreds of thousands. TV shows and movies reach millions and billions.

 

[Damian]

Just to remind folks that a tie-in novel reaches less than 10% of the audience that a TV show or movie reaches. Books sell in the tens to hundreds of thousands. TV shows and movies reach millions and billions.

Yes, that's true. As much as I love the novel continuity and in my utopian Star Trek vision Picard would have picked up 12 years from where the novels are now (assuming they stuck with 2399 as the start date) I do know that's just unrealistic (and probably unfair to the show runners--the only way that would ever happen is they loved the litverse like some of us do and WANTED to do something like that).

I'd be content if they could continue the litverse as an alternate/parallel universe, even in an e-book format, even if it were just two or three stories a year (or hell, I'd take one a year). But Star Trek hasn't really even done that before except a few isolated cases (like the Rihannsu series). Now Star Trek hasn't had a continuing storyline in it's litverse for this long before and I believe there is a niche market for it at least in an e-book format if nothing else.

But that being said I'm not even really expecting that much. Kirsten Beyer has all but said her upcoming Voyager will be the last in the relaunches (at least for Voyager) and I kind of expect it to be the last overall relaunch story in the 24th century. Though in my less than perfect world I'd still like one last DS9 book, since TNG got a sort of finale and Voyager is getting one, it only seems fair to get one last farewell to DS9 (I know, I'm harping on that but come on S&S--at least let us say good bye to DS9 one last time ).

Of course that just leaves Enterprise, which could conceivably continue again someday largely unaffected if they wished to. We'll see if Christopher or someone else (along with S&S of course) decides to continue that story at some point.

 

[Tuskin38]

So episode 2 technically made the McCall class shuttle canon. Though probably just a coincidence, Eaves probably just submitted the design in as he already had it lying around.

assuming they stuck with 2399 as the start date

They did. The opening of episode 2 flashes back to 14 years ago, 2385

 

[Deano2099]

While I think readers of the Litverse stuff not moving on to the new tie-ins won't be uncommon, I think the rest of your story is.

I don't have a fan wide survey to back this, but based on what I have seen in this forum, youtube comment sections, and reddit, I think the numbers of readers of Star Trek novels that are not Star Trek fans is a fairly small percentage.

I think that's a self-fulfilling thing though. The "not Trek fans" won't be posting on those places in the first place. Hell, I'm only back here for the first time in ages to find out what's happening with the novelverse now. Personally I'm absolutely astounded the litverse exists and is somehow profitable now. That they can put out books with few or no recognisable characters, linked into continuity established by 30+ prior books... I mean based on this forum/reddit and that sort of thing, there isn't a big enough market. The only way those books could have been made the past five years is if there's a huge audience buying and reading them that are not on the forums and such.

I think the number of people who are no longer fans of say TNG or DS9 but still read the novels of those respective series would be rare.

I guess that's the weirdness here - I'd still say I was a DS9 "fan" but outside the books I've not engaged with DS9 for decades. Since it last aired most likely (above mentioned failed rewatch notwithstanding).

All of that said, the fact of the matter is these tie-in products exist primarily as a means to sell the series they are based on, so the focus is always going to be on maximizing that potential.

Absolutely. I just think you maximise that potential by doing the stuff you already know to profitable, and then add in the additional "gambles" on the new stuff. It's resource dependent of course, but I can absolutely see the argument for keeping the litverse around in a reduced capacity in case the bottom drops out of the shiny new stuff. It's a weird example as this doesn't apply as it's based on books already, but Game of Thrones was the biggest thing in TV for 7 years and then it fell off a cliff.

(Of course, there's also the possibility they were going to drop the litverse entirely anyway, hence the issues with renewing the contract, and it only got renewed in the end because they were betting on the new series making it worthwhile, and that the current litverse stuff isn't actually profitable under the new arrangement.)