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Spoilers Picard 1x1, "Remembrance"

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jaime said:
What antagonist? What issue? What decision? What episode did you watch? Because nothing was resolved in the opening. Unless you are stretching the reporter into antagonist territory, nothing you describe here happened.

And if you are, do you think we champion the ‘Romulan Lives/ No, just lives’ simply because it’s Picard? Or perhaps because it is right, and in keeping with bothe character and Trek itself? Or because, despite your protestations to the contrary, it is also justified within the episode itself (and past Trek).

Should Picard trip up, rest assured, we will be here to blast holes in it; it hasn’t yet. DSC, like it or dislike it, had objectively blatant flaws early on that it’s had to work on (which is why the bridge officers suddenly had lines and names in series two, and a captain that fits the milieu. I mean I *like* georgiou on paper, and love Michelle Yeoh as an actress, but man she just came over as Janeway-as-war-criminal once that stuff got rolling. Oh, and then she got eaten because this is ‘adult’ Trek and ‘not your fathers Trek’ — no, we had Chains of Command, or Duet, or..most of DS9 tbh; which was obviously oh so childish and juvenile.) and has done so.

Sorry. So far, Picard is just *better*. And that’s ok, because we aren’t going to stop watching or making DSC just because it is. It will benefit DSC to have a stablemate. There’s no need to be insecure about it. It’s a different show, they aren’t fighting each other.
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I've watched Rememberance and absorbed it all. One very important thing was resolved or there's no onging story. Therein you find the antagonist.

FYI, MU Georgiou is hardly like Janeway at all. their motivations are come from entirely different places and set them on very different courses. You're upset that a character ended up as food in DSC? Mantrap, the very first episode ever broacast of of "your father's Trek" had people being treated by the episode's antagonist as food. And antagonist which was treated in that episode with some sympathy.
 
Would Kirk and his crew fighting against V'Ger and the Whale Probe fall into "Man vs. Nature"?
 
Alan Roi said:
Ok, let's talk about "The Child". Oh, wait. You don't want to talk about "The Child" because to do so would be objectively one sided?
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Sure. Let’s.

Did Troi characterise It as a traumatic rape experience? No.
Beyond the fact it ended in the conception of a child, was Troi in any way actually sexually assaulted? No.
Was some of the script, recycled from seventies phase two because of a writers strike, clumsy and a bit...dated shall we say... around some of the characters reactions? Yes.
Was there anything played for titillation of the viewers? No.
Did the character have agency once the basically ‘alien parasite’ story is set up? Yes.

Now. Disco.

Were Tyler’s experiences characterised as traumatic rape experiences? Yes.
Was he actually sexually assaulted? Yes, from Tyler’s POV, very much so. Maybe not from Voqs.
Was the script affected by any strikes etc? No, this was just the behind the scenes mash that the show sadly suffered from in development.
Was there any titillation for the viewers? Yes. Klingon tits hoorah! First time on screen and it’s in a rape scene! (Ick) also...bonus shadow Thlingan’hah (sic) punani!
Did the character have any agency? No, he was built up as a male victim of rape, then that was walked back because really he was mind-controlled vow all along. He also was then written as shacking up with his rapist. (They went too heavy on Tyler as seperate from Voq and way too heavy on what he went through, to make his relationship with L’Rell not be heavy ick. Hot though L’Rell is.)
If those genders were flipped, that story would never have made it to screen, and frankly given how they skirted the issues or worse, probably shouldn’t have.
The Child, for all its clumsy problems, is no where near as bad as Klingon Femme Dom Rape Porn on DSC.
 
I have not read all 140 pages so I apologize if I am repeating somethings.

Overall I loved it.

I think they found the right balance between creating a new look and keeping the TNG aesthetics. Regarding ships it remains to be seen what they will do, I would love some known TNG error ships appearing, even if only as background decoration. I would especially like some known but unseen clearly in canon ships like the New Orleans making an appearance. I loved the combination of the French, sorry Californian, Chateau with modern tech like Replicators.

Dahj was accepted to the Daystrom Institute Department of Cybernetics, but she did not know who Data was? That is improbable.

So what are the chances that the Synth uprising is what leads to Control? Many me included thought he looked like the Borg. Maybe he stole some tech from the Cube the Romulans have.
 
Longinus said:
Unnecessarily simplistic and not all of these even feature 'an antagonist' in a way that the definition would make sense.

But please let me know if you want to actually express your argument in intelligible manner at some point.
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They make perfect sense when it comes to constructing drama. In the case of Rememberance, the answer is D. This is made demonstrably clear at the 35 minute mark.
 
Alan Roi said:
As good as Balance of Terror is, It also wraps things up very neatly in a bow and its statements on racism and blindly demonizing an enemy are pretty simplistic. Most TOS episodes are pretty simplistic. So why is simplistic good in TOS and not good in DISCO? After all, they are set in a similar era. Is simplistic not OK for Picard, even though it was OK to make things simplistic in TNG?
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I’d dispute that TOS, at its best, was simplistic. But it was made more than a half-century ago. Judged by the standards of its day, and considering the limitations of its form, it was remarkably thoughtful and sophisticated television sci-fi. I can’t yet say the same for Discovery, a show free of so many of those limitations, but I hope that changes. Similarly, I hope Picard is great by the standards of today, not the standards of 30 years ago.

Ultimately, I’m not interested in comparing Discovery or Picard to anything other than what they have the potential to be.
 
Alan Roi said:
Sure, the ongoing morality of aiding an enemy will very much likely be a season long issue not an issut that this episode was centered around, only referring to. But there is a clear antagonist in this episode, and it needs to be defeated in order for the story of the episode to be resolved.
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Where?
 
jaime said:
Sure. Let’s.

Did Troi characterise It as a traumatic rape experience? No.
Beyond the fact it ended in the conception of a child, was Troi in any way actually sexually assaulted? No.
Was some of the script, recycled from seventies phase two because of a writers strike, clumsy and a bit...dated shall we say... around some of the characters reactions? Yes.
Was there anything played for titillation of the viewers? No.
Did the character have agency once the basically ‘alien parasite’ story is set up? Yes.

Now. Disco.

Were Tyler’s experiences characterised as traumatic rape experiences? Yes.
Was he actually sexually assaulted? Yes, from Tyler’s POV, very much so. Maybe not from Voqs.
Was the script affected by any strikes etc? No, this was just the behind the scenes mash that the show sadly suffered from in development.
Was there any titillation for the viewers? Yes. Klingon tits hoorah! First time on screen and it’s in a rape scene! (Ick) also...bonus shadow Thlingan’hah (sic) punani!
Did the character have any agency? No, he was built up as a male victim of rape, then that was walked back because really he was mind-controlled vow all along. He also was then written as shacking up with his rapist. (They went too heavy on Tyler as seperate from Voq and way too heavy on what he went through, to make his relationship with L’Rell not be heavy ick. Hot though L’Rell is.)
If those genders were flipped, that story would never have made it to screen, and frankly given how they skirted the issues or worse, probably shouldn’t have.
The Child, for all its clumsy problems, is no where near as bad as Klingon Femme Dom Rape Porn on DSC.
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You miss the most important view of whether one has been raped. And that is, was there consent. Did Troi consent? No. Did Voq consent. Yes.

As for titillation, I don't find HR Giger's work particularly titillating, although I guess some people do.
 
Noname Given said:
No but TNG did do S6 - "The Outcast" - which at the end effectively said: "Look - Homosexuality/Psychological Gender Identity Mismatch from Societal Norms CAN BE CURED...and that's a good thing too, the affected character says so..."

And then there's S4 - "Galaxy's Child" where Geordi effectively is stalking and borderline sexually harassing Leah Brahms - and at the end the writers practically gaslight her by having Geordi claim "I'm guilty of a terrible crime...I offered you friendship..." and her effectively agreeing when if you go back and look at the way he set up their "Business Meeting" in his quarters earlier in the episode..."
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Neither of those things are actually true, and yes, I have seen the articles claiming as such but they all make two mistakes (a) they apply the zeitgeist cultural mores of now to then, without taking into account the pressures of the mores at the time but most importantly (b) they require taking scenes out of context and ignoring contradictory facts in the episode itself in order to support the ‘shock’ claim. This is especially true of ‘The Outcast’ in the reading you mention, because it is screamingly obvious that it is not considered a ‘good thing’ and it’s one of Treks down endings (like City on the Edge of Forever, or Perfect Mate.)
But, we are discussing Trek being made now. *shrug*
I mean I can bat away half baked modern crazy political readings of my Trek era all day if I have to, but we have other forums for that.
I can also happily say when they are right. If it ever happens. I have yet to meet an accurate accusation as yet, though I entertain it may one day happen.
 
Alan Roi said:
I've watched Rememberance and absorbed it all. One very important thing was resolved or there's no onging story. Therein you find the antagonist.

FYI, MU Georgiou is hardly like Janeway at all. their motivations are come from entirely different places and set them on very different courses. You're upset that a character ended up as food in DSC? Mantrap, the very first episode ever broacast of of "your father's Trek" had people being treated by the episode's antagonist as food. And antagonist which was treated in that episode with some sympathy.
Click to expand...

I am upset she broke the Geneva convention and put bombs in the bodies of fallen combatants to be triggered when the dead were collected. Being eaten? Yeah, I hate that shit (which is radically different in presentation to the Man Trap, bits so fucking obvious anyway) and it’s just shlock for the weirdos out there.
 
Longinus said:
And thus the episode doesn't involve 'antagonist'. Can you now stop trying to be a drama teacher? You're not very good at it.
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Yes, his 'offended dignity' is the antagonist in this story. Picard is being held back and tormented psychologically because his 'offended dignity' won't let him move past an event 15 years in his past. Its classic Man vs. Himself.
 
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