Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[Damian]

Yeah and you got repaid with thousands of hours of free entertainment when it was televised and now you can pay $12 to have full access to the entirety of the franchise via streaming services. You purchased a book for $15 and your reward is an entertaining story you can read again and again. Heck Paramount and CBS even let people make fan films of their intellectual property, before a segment of the fan base took advantage of their good will. So I would say that CBS and by extension pocket books have done more than enough to settle the apparent debt owed to fans.

Wanting a satisfying conclusion and demanding one because 'they owe you' are two very different things.

Well, I kind of agree with both of you. CBS & Paramount have earned a lot of money off of Star Trek over the years. It's not like they provide us with Star Trek out of the goodness of their heart. They do it to make money. Nothing wrong with that. But it's not free, not by a long shot. I bought VHS videos years ago, then DVDs to replace the VHS, and in some cases Blu-Rays to replace the DVDs. I've purchased every book I could get my hands on too. None of that was free. CBS and Paramount have made a lot of money from me.

And it generally benefits them to keep the fans wanting more. Because we keep buying and making them money.

Now I do agree there is a big difference between wanting and demanding. I'd love nothing more than to have my cake and eat it too. I'd love for them to find a way to continue the existing relaunches, perhaps tie in to Picard wherever possible, but continue as an alternate/parallel universe. Hell, I've enjoyed the litverse so much over the years I would have loved for them to just pick up where the novels left off (well, 12 years after), my own little Star Trek utopia (though I know that's totally unrealistic, but I can dream). But I would never 'demand' it. Mainly because this isn't life or death. It's entertainment. Also CBS doesn't really give a hoot what I think. I post my feelings here but I know in the grand scheme of things it's just that. My feelings/opinions. Sometimes I get what I want--but only because the PTBs just coincidentally want the same things--and sometimes I don't. C'est la vie.

And I'd still like at least one more Deep Space Nine novel

 

[Damian]

First Contact overwrote Federation,

And Strangers from the Sky. I have to admit I was initially a bit put off by that. I still didn't have a firm handle on the whole canon vs. tie in philosophy at that time. I guess I thought books were sort of part of the continuity (or canon I guess). So I kind of thought the history of Earth's first contact in Strangers.... was based on some official source of Star Trek history.

I was like, WTF, didn't Earth make contact with Alpha Centauri already, and didn't official first contact with the Vulcans take place in space.

It helped that I loved First Contact. And it was a lesson learned in the sense that I finally learned that on screen Star Trek was not beholden to books at all, in the slightest. I mean, I had notices contradictions before--but Star Trek, even on screen, has always had some of that. And I was still in my infancy of reading novels, I'm not sure I had yet read any of the Rihannsu novels at that point.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Well, I kind of agree with both of you. CBS & Paramount have earned a lot of money off of Star Trek over the years. It's not like they provide us with Star Trek out of the goodness of their heart. They do it to make money. Nothing wrong with that. But it's not free, not by a long shot. I bought VHS videos years ago, then DVDs to replace the VHS, and in some cases Blu-Rays to replace the DVDs. I've purchased every book I could get my hands on too. None of that was free. CBS and Paramount have made a lot of money from me.

And it generally benefits them to keep the fans wanting more. Because we keep buying and making them money.

Yes and you choose to buy those things. They provide a heap of products for you to enjoy and the price of that is that you have to pay money for them. No one is forcing you to, hence why we are not owed anything. And while yes they do it to make money, I think for the most part the products whether they be TV shows, toys or books are always of the highest quality and worth the money you spend. And to be fair CBS did act with kindness and deference to the fan base when they allowed fan productions to do their thing unmolested. It wasn't until Alec Peters tried making money off of the IP that they put their foot down.

 

[Damian]

Yes and you choose to buy those things. They provide a heap of products for you to enjoy and the price of that is that you have to pay money for them. No one is forcing you to, hence why we are not owed anything. And while yes they do it to make money, I think for the most part the products whether they be TV shows, toys or books are always of the highest quality and worth the money you spend. And to be fair CBS did act with kindness and deference to the fan base when they allowed fan productions to do their thing unmolested. It wasn't until Alec Peters tried making money off of the IP that they put their foot down.

Well, that's the half part I agree with you on. I bought all that stuff of my own free will. My main contention just is that CBS/Paramount is hardly being altruistic.

But I agree, they hardly owe me anything. I just point out my likes, what'd I'd like to have. If I don't like something someday they put out with the Star Trek name on it I won't buy. If enough fans say they want something maybe CBS and the PTBs would listen---though since we rarely agree on anything in great numbers it's probably not likely to be in enough numbers to make a difference.

After all, for everyone out there like me that would love to see the litverse continue--there's probably an equal number that would just assume it end. It is the way of things I guess.

 

[Krupp]

Yes and you choose to buy those things. They provide a heap of products for you to enjoy and the price of that is that you have to pay money for them. No one is forcing you to, hence why we are not owed anything. And while yes they do it to make money, I think for the most part the products whether they be TV shows, toys or books are always of the highest quality and worth the money you spend. And to be fair CBS did act with kindness and deference to the fan base when they allowed fan productions to do their thing unmolested. It wasn't until Alec Peters tried making money off of the IP that they put their foot down.

Perhaps the notion of a fan demand and your own lived experience of working somewhere where people would give you hassle in work demanding things are crossing over here to give you a visceral view of this, which I can understand. But I genuinely think it is good business to identify the different cohorts of customers for any business and service them appropriately. Star Trek has gone through a pretty fallow period, even the JJverse movies seem to have basically come a cropper. Who knows where this flurry of new streaming shows will continue or end. I hope continue! But if Star Trek finds itself hard up, it’s the hardcore fans who have been consuming media like books pretty consistently over years - and I’d bet a survey would show them reaching into their wallets for more besides - who will keep your long tail revenues going. The lifetime value is probably significantly higher than a casual who drops in and out of CBS All Access in the streaming wars. It really does make a lot of sense to service this cohort of fans a little, and I reckon a concluding book or series would sell better than your typical book to boot in short term revenue and profits for those concerned.

And sometimes yes, the price of having a brand that has loyal fans who will purchase almost anything you produce in good times and bad - be you Star Trek, Apple or Manchester United FC - is that they will make what they consider fair demands of the owners who have profited off them for a long time. You can scoff at these people as well as not always listening to their demands, but scoffing is rarely good business even if you don’t always do as they ask.

 

[Deano2099]

The novelverse clearly made money for a long time. There's a reason they kept putting them out. In a vacuum, there's no real reason to stop doing them, if they can work around the continuity issues. I mean, they're not hugely accessible to anyone that's not already engaged with them - they presumably have their own fanbase that's somewhat distinct to the regular Trek fanbase at this point. Spinning them off into an alt universe series wouldn't damage that much.

Tie-ins to the new shows will clearly be more profitable. Can't argue that (at least as long as the shows stay popular). But certain assumptions are being made, notably the idea that "there's only 8 books a year now". That's not fixed in stone (probably) - putting out novelverse books is profitable. Putting out new tie-ins is profitable. Doing both is probably even more profitable.

Now, it's not actually that simple. We don't know what the licensing contract is - the extended negotiation period was likely as the price has gone up (because of Trek's increased profile) - on that basis, the novelverse alone might not be profitable any more. Even as "additional" books on top of a full slate of tie-ins. There might even be a limit on the number of books they can publish each year. Secondly, we don't know if new tie-ins would eat in to sales of litverse books. How many people are buying litverse stuff because they're invested in it, versus just because it's been the only available Trek novels out there.

On the other hand, there's every chance this renaissance of Trek won't last forever. To be honest, one series that tanks might be enough to kill it. Continuing to put out a couple of litverse novels every year to keep those readers engaged would make it far easier to ramp back up in that direction should Trek's fortunes wane again.

I think it could still go either way.

 

[The Wormhole]

But certain assumptions are being made, notably the idea that "there's only 8 books a year now". That's not fixed in stone (probably)

Certainly seems to be. 2019 only had eight novels, one of which was a reprint of the TMP novelization, which means there were only seven new novels. So far, 2020 only has eight books on schedule, though only seven are from Pocket. The eighth is the Janeway autobiography from Titan. If 2021 has more then eight novels, I'll be very surprised.

 

[Corran Horn]

Certainly seems to be. 2019 only had eight novels, one of which was a reprint of the TMP novelization, which means there were only seven new novels. So far, 2020 only has eight books on schedule, though only seven are from Pocket. The eighth is the Janeway autobiography from Titan. If 2021 has more then eight novels, I'll be very surprised.

Boy, really makes me miss the old days of 2-3/month.

 

[Deano2099]

Certainly seems to be. 2019 only had eight novels, one of which was a reprint of the TMP novelization, which means there were only seven new novels. So far, 2020 only has eight books on schedule, though only seven are from Pocket. The eighth is the Janeway autobiography from Titan. If 2021 has more then eight novels, I'll be very surprised.

Around the time that stuff was being commissioned we were in the early days of Discovery, which was getting a mixed reaction and no-one knew where things were going. Disco could have been a total dud, cancelled after one season and that's Trek on TV done for another 20 years. It's only the past 12 months we've started to see that things are progressing hugely on the TV front, with multiple series on air and more in development. I'd be hugely surprised if the number of books didn't increase to match the new status quo. But that takes time (not just commissioning, but hiring new editors and so on) but it's a much more secure move than it would have been even 18 months ago.

 

[The Wormhole]

Around the time that stuff was being commissioned we were in the early days of Discovery,

Umm, no. Pretty much the entirety of Disco's first season aired when nothing was being commissioned with the novels because they were in extended negotiations. By the time that was sorted out, it was clear Disco was successful by the fact that Picard was announced around the same time.

I'd be hugely surprised if the number of books didn't increase to match the new status quo.

Again, no. The reason the amount of books per year has been scaled back is because they're all trade paperback now, meaning they cost more money, and the marketing people likely realize the average Trek fan lives within a budget. With seven original novels released from Pocket released in 2019 and 2020 costing on average $20.00 each, that means a Trek fan who buys all of them is spending $140.00, only a twenty dollar hike from the days of twelve MMPBs a year costing around $10.00 each (totalling at $120.00 a year). If they did twelve TPBs that would mean spending $240.00 a year, basically double what was being spent in the MMPB days.

We also live in an era where many franchises are scaling back how many tie-in novels a year they put out. Most other franchises usually only put out a maximum of six a year, and it's not uncommon for there to be less than that. Let's take a look at the recent years of Star Wars. In 2018 they only did four novels, and two of them were movie novelizations. In 2019 there were six, one of the a script of an audio drama. So far in 2020 there's only three on schedule, one of which is a movie novelization.

Even at eight novels a year, Star Trek is still putting out more novels than any other franchise does. As we see, they already have over double the amount of novels scheduled for 2020 than their closest (and arguably more popular) competitor. It's completely unrealistic to expect more than eight Star Trek novels a year. Indeed, we shouldn't be surprised if the annual output is further decreased in years to come.

 

[Leto_II]

^ Actually, the CBS/Simon & Schuster negotiations ended a few months prior to the broadcast of DSC's first season (during the summer of 2017 -- I remember because the day the new contract was announced, mentioning the inclusion of Kelvin Timeline elements and novels, I was sitting in the cafeteria of the high school where I teach working the fall student-registration lines when I saw the announcement on my phone ).

 

[Deano2099]

Again, no. The reason the amount of books per year has been scaled back is because they're all trade paperback now, meaning they cost more money, and the marketing people likely realize the average Trek fan lives within a budget. With seven original novels released from Pocket released in 2019 and 2020 costing on average $20.00 each, that means a Trek fan who buys all of them is spending $140.00, only a twenty dollar hike from the days of twelve MMPBs a year costing around $10.00 each (totalling at $120.00 a year). If they did twelve TPBs that would mean spending $240.00 a year, basically double what was being spent in the MMPB days.

I literally addressed that in the original post, but to summarise - you're assuming a huge amount of crossover between people that would buy the litverse novels and people that would buy the new series tie-ins. I'm not sure that's the case. The litverse is very much its own thing at the moment, with its own small but loyal (and profitable) fanbase. I honestly don't see many of them going "oh there are Picard tie-ins now, I'd rather spend money on them than continuing this story". Especially given, as much as I like Disco and Picard, they're not trad-Trek shows.

Even at eight novels a year, Star Trek is still putting out more novels than any other franchise does. As we see, they already have over double the amount of novels scheduled for 2020 than their closest (and arguably more popular) competitor. It's completely unrealistic to expect more than eight Star Trek novels a year. Indeed, we shouldn't be surprised if the annual output is further decreased in years to come.

And Warhammer puts out 5x what Star Trek does. What other franchises do doesn't really matter. It's down to what works for the folk that make the Star Trek books. Frankly if I were running things, I'd struggle to explain to shareholders that because of the success of Picard and Discovery, we'd be scaling back operations. As will absolutely always be the case, if sales don't support the books, they'll stop making them. They clearly do for the litverse.

 

[GaryH]

Spoiler

The child is named Kestra, after Deanna's sister from Dark Page.

that works in fairness

 

[GaryH]

I am glad the Voyager cliffhanger will be resolved, but other than that I am happy to think of the LitVerse continuing to boldly go with Picard as Captain of the Enterprise until he retires in a parallel universe. I don’t think I want a wrap up story. Let them have adventures we don’t see while we spend time with the new timeline for a while rather than blow it all up / end the timeline.

 

[Tirius]

^^ If it comes to that, to quote Sisko, I think I can live with it. Different versions of post-series timelines is nothing new to us long-time fans, especially ones like me who have been both reading the novels and playing STO over the last 10 years; but I understand that perhaps the folks in charge will have to make choices here from a marketing perspective.

As for the books from the new series, I don't know. I still haven't warmed to the Discovery characters enough to be interested in books from that series, which is the exact same reason I never had any interest in the Kelvin timeline tales. The upcoming Picard novel *has* peaked my interest, but also because I've always really liked Una McCormack's writing. Good Trek has always been about the characters for me, so I will pick up books that feature the crews I like, and not worry too much about continuity.

 

[The Wormhole]

^ Actually, the CBS/Simon & Schuster negotiations ended a few months prior to the broadcast of DSC's first season (during the summer of 2017 -- I remember because the day the new contract was announced, mentioning the inclusion of Kelvin Timeline elements and novels, I was sitting in the cafeteria of the high school where I teach working the fall student-registration lines when I saw the announcement on my phone ).

I do remember it being announced summer 2017 that Pocket was pursuing the rights to the Kelvin timeline, but as I remember it, there was literally no novel news after that until August 2018 when 2019 novels began being announced. And during that drought we had authors from Pocket posting here on the forum that the negotiations were still ongoing. Indeed, here's a post I made in April 2018 commenting on the fact the negotiations were still ongoing.

I literally addressed that in the original post, but to summarise - you're assuming a huge amount of crossover between people that would buy the litverse novels and people that would buy the new series tie-ins.

There are people who buy everything, and that fact is put into consideration when deciding how many novels to publish per year. Indeed, some franchises actually use that as a means to determine how long a gap there should be between new novel releases.

The litverse is very much its own thing at the moment, with its own small but loyal (and profitable) fanbase. I honestly don't see many of them going "oh there are Picard tie-ins now, I'd rather spend money on them than continuing this story".

As profitable as the Litverse might have been, it is empirical fact that TOS 5YM novels were the true money maker, as indeed there tended to be more of those per year than there were Litverse novels. So, as the novels shift toward tie-ins of the current shows, the remaining slots on their annual line-up are more likely to go to TOS 5YM novels than Litverse, because that's where the money is.

Besides this is nothing unprecedented. Star Trek already had a developed novel continuity in the 80s they abandoned once TNG premiered. Star Wars had a developed novel continuity they abandoned in 2014 once new movies went into development. Doctor Who had a developed novel continuity that was abandoned when the show came back in 2005. All these were profitable for the franchises in question but no second thoughts were given to ditching them in favor for on screen material. Indeed, in Doctor Who's case they went from releasing eleven novels a year when there was no show to only six novels a year after the show returned. And as years have gone by and the show gained popularity, those numbers have further decreased to the point that when the show was at its height popularity and publicity in 2013 with the fiftieth anniversary celebrations, there were only four new novels released.

Star Trek is back on TV, its novel continuity days are over. That is the way of things.

 

[JD]

I literally addressed that in the original post, but to summarise - you're assuming a huge amount of crossover between people that would buy the litverse novels and people that would buy the new series tie-ins. I'm not sure that's the case. The litverse is very much its own thing at the moment, with its own small but loyal (and profitable) fanbase. I honestly don't see many of them going "oh there are Picard tie-ins now, I'd rather spend money on them than continuing this story". Especially given, as much as I like Disco and Picard, they're not trad-Trek shows.

I would think if people are big enough Trekkies to buy the books, they're probably going to watch Picard and Discovery and if they like them buy their books to.

 

[David Weller]

I would think if people are big enough Trekkies to buy the books, they're probably going to watch Picard and Discovery and if they like them buy their books to.

I’ve only been reading the novels for the last four years (don’t know what took me so long) and I’ve been reading and enjoying them.

I’ve also read and enjoyed the Discovery novels. As it stands right now I would buy any novel that has Star Trek in the title.

 

[SolarisOne]

I can also see New Frontier picking up in the Picard era, and just never ever mentioning their Destiny tie-ins ever again.

New Frontier's internal continuity is largely incompatible with the wider litverse, anyway. And the Romulan supernova would have a distinct effect on Sector 221-G, seeing as it's at least near the Neutral Zone.

Though, who knows if Peter David is game for writing more NF novels, though.

 

[David Weller]

I do remember it being announced summer 2017 that Pocket was pursuing the rights to the Kelvin timeline, but as I remember it, there was literally no novel news after that until August 2018 when 2019 novels began being announced. And during that drought we had authors from Pocket posting here on the forum that the negotiations were still ongoing. Indeed, here's a post I made in April 2018 commenting on the fact the negotiations were still ongoing.

There are people who buy everything, and that fact is put into consideration when deciding how many novels to publish per year. Indeed, some franchises actually use that as a means to determine how long a gap there should be between new novel releases.

As profitable as the Litverse might have been, it is empirical fact that TOS 5YM novels were the true money maker, as indeed there tended to be more of those per year than there were Litverse novels. So, as the novels shift toward tie-ins of the current shows, the remaining slots on their annual line-up are more likely to go to TOS 5YM novels than Litverse, because that's where the money is.

Besides this is nothing unprecedented. Star Trek already had a developed novel continuity in the 80s they abandoned once TNG premiered. Star Wars had a developed novel continuity they abandoned in 2014 once new movies went into development. Doctor Who had a developed novel continuity that was abandoned when the show came back in 2005. All these were profitable for the franchises in question but no second thoughts were given to ditching them in favor for on screen material. Indeed, in Doctor Who's case they went from releasing eleven novels a year when there was no show to only six novels a year after the show returned. And as years have gone by and the show gained popularity, those numbers have further decreased to the point that when the show was at its height popularity and publicity in 2013 with the fiftieth anniversary celebrations, there were only four new novels released.

Star Trek is back on TV, its novel continuity days are over. That is the way of things.

Actually, for the Doctor Who novels it was more than eleven a year; more like twenty-two. Eleven featuring the then current Doctor and eleven featuring past Doctors.

For some reason that I’ve never understood, no Doctor Who novels were published in December.